TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Ask The Tropers

Go To

Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help. It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here. You can also go to this Directory thread for ongoing cleanup projects.

Ask the Tropers:

Trope Related Question:

Make Private (For security bugs or stuff only for moderators)

rjd1922 Since: May, 2013
2021-05-09 06:37:14

Use British English, as it's a British series.

Keet cleanup
harryhenry Since: Jan, 2012
2021-05-09 06:47:10

I know that's a Wikipedia policy, but is that what TV Tropes does? More often I see a "first dibs" when it comes to writing either in British or American English, i.e. "if the troper typed 'colour' then it should remain as-is".

RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2021-05-09 06:48:40

Our policy is "strong national ties", which Harry Potter definitely qualifies for.

American and Commonwealth Spellings

laserviking42 Since: Oct, 2015
2021-05-09 06:53:51

The two tropers are edit warring over a trope name however, Curb-Stomp Battle vs Kerb-Stomp Battle. I don't think we rename or pothole tropes based on regional spelling.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
2021-05-09 06:54:49

I'll just repeat what I asked in the other ATT report:

That applies to the example text, but does it also apply to trope names? Especially since in this case the British spelling would change the alphabetisation and might lead to people not realizing the trope is there.

MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-05-09 08:23:48

We don't change trope names. In the list, we use the regular trope name.

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019
2021-05-09 08:32:10

Also, I'm more in favour of "Curb" over "Kerb" due to familiarity.

I know what's a Curb-Stomp Battle ever since knowing this thing is a trope at least 7 years ago, but tbh this is the first time I've heard of "Kerb" Stomp Battle...

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2021-05-09 08:46:42

The redirect was only implemented 2 and a half weeks ago, going by edit history.

Also my first time seeing "Kerb" outside of Kerbal Space Program

Edited by sgamer82
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-05-09 09:30:35

Also, offa is rude in their edit reasons, writing things like "I don't know why you're obsessed with this and none of the other British spellings on the page" and "I don't know why you fixate on this when there are several other tropes with British spelling on this page."

Also, they use bad indentation.

I'm gonna summon them now.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-05-09 09:50:32

FWIW, redirects can be used if they're gendered redirects or minor spelling tweaks, and don't ruin the alphabetization. Using Nice Girl instead of Nice Guy is fine. So is using Gloomy Grey over Gloomy Gray. Using Kerb-Stomp Battle, not so much.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2021-05-09 09:56:49

Just for the sake of having someone ask the stupid question: Is "Kerb" actually a thing? I'm assuming so, since a mod made the redirect and I would think they'd check for that.

Edited by sgamer82
Vandagyre (Fifth Year at Tropey's)
2021-05-09 10:23:14

"Kerb" is the British English spelling of "curb" as the word applies to the edge of the sidewalk.

Edited by Vandagyre Cave Johnson, we're done here.
GnomeTitan Since: Aug, 2013
2021-05-09 10:30:57

There's also the question if "kerb-stomp battle" is an idiomatic expression in British English. If it's an American expression, it looks strange to use British spelling.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
2021-05-09 11:07:59

"Curb-stomp battle" is not a British idiom. I'd never even heard the term until I saw it on TV Tropes.

In British English, "kerb" is the side of a pavement where it meets the road ("Mind the kerb when you're crossing the road!").

"Curb" is used solely when talking about restraint ("Someone needs to curb that child's behaviour before he lands himself in gaol").

I've just looked up the origin of "curb-stomp". If it did exist in British English, it would indeed be spelled "kerb-stomp". What we do have is a phrase called "bite the kerb". While this is a reference to a "curb-stomp" it actually has death connotations. For example, instead of saying "Fuck off and die, bitch", you could say "Bite the kerb, bitch".

Edited to add: Actually, I've done a bit of digging, and "kerb-stomp" does exist in British English. I'm Welsh, so it's not a thing in Wales. However, it does exist as a term in English regions such as London (so, regions that are relevant to Harry Potter). Its use has Nazi origins dating back to WW2. The BBC has even used it in news articles (with the "kerb-stomp" spelling) when reporting in the London area about the arrests of neo-Nazis.

So, I stand corrected. "Kerb-stomp" does exist in British English.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2021-05-09 12:16:40

So the question becomes should the entry on the page be Kerb-Stomp Battle, due to the British tie, or Curb-Stomp Battle due to the most common usage of the trope and the affect on alphebetization?

Side note: There's another ATT thread about this issue started by ~Arthas 123

Edited by sgamer82
Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-05-09 12:53:07

I hate to bring this up, but the redirect was added to about 40 pages, all of which were added by offa. Some of the pages are fine (like some Doctor Who subpages), but then there's pages like The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and Tomorrow Never Dies, which...I don't think that's correct.

They also have done a lot of changes from English to British spelling on these pages other than Kerb-Stomp Battle, and I'm not sure they're in the right here.

Offa's edit history.

Edited by Arctimon
bwburke94 (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
2021-05-09 22:23:42

^ Of the three, the only one I'd judge as "strong national ties" is Bond.

(As an aside, because alphabetization changes, whichever spelling ends up not used on a page should have a comment explaining the situation. So if we use the British spelling on K, a comment should be placed where the American spelling would go on C.)

2025: the year it all ends?
GnomeTitan Since: Aug, 2013
2021-05-10 08:04:13

I can understand why you'd want to use British English when discussing a work where the characters are Britons and it takes place at least partially in Britain (Bond travels all over the world, but he doesn't start talking American English when abroad). Not so much in the case of spelling, actually, but more when it comes to vocabulary. In the context of Harry Potter, it would feel jarring to talk about the "principal" of Hogwarts, or to say that Harry is in "junior high".

But I think it's going too far to say that The Hobbit has strong national ties in that sense. That would put us on a slippery slope where we'd end up only being able to discuss most authors in their native language.

Edited by GnomeTitan
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2021-05-10 09:25:45

Right. Part of those strong national ties are the fact that the character and setting are explicitly British, not because their authors are. Even if Bond travels the world he's still a British secret agent. Their British icons in a way similar to American characters like (off-the-cuff example) Superman.

Tolkien's work, meanwhile, is in a pure fantasy world with analogues, at best. It would fall under "first come, first serve"

Edited by sgamer82
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
2021-05-10 09:44:49

I was going to ask about how it affects a fantasy setting because someone's just reverted British spelling on the YMMV.RWBY page to American English on the grounds that RWBY is an American-created show and therefore must use American English. However, the show itself is a made-up setting on a fantasy world, inspired by (and using) fairy tales from all over the world to create its characters, setting and plot.

That's the same situation as Tolkien's works, making it 'first come, first serve', isn't it? It would only fall under 'American spelling preferred' if the show was set in the US? note 

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
gjjones Since: Jul, 2016
2021-05-10 09:50:09

That someone would be Zaptech.

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
2021-05-10 10:06:23

It's HodorForKing who shouldn't have changed the spelling. Zaptech was correct to revert it. I'm just seeking clarification that the correct edit reason should be "violation of the 'first come, first serve' rule" rather than "fantasy work created by Americans should use American English".

The only reason I asked here is that it's directly connected to the Tolkien discussion, and I wanted to spare ATT a third thread on the same subject.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
gjjones Since: Jul, 2016
2021-05-10 10:12:56

Gotcha.

Anyway, there are a few works that have national ties to them, including Indiana Jones, Jaws, The Iron Giant and Ready Player One (all of which are set in the United States and the main protagonists are American).

Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-05-10 10:16:49

^ I wouldn't say any of those have "strong National ties", speaking as an American. If anything, I think of movies like Independence Day.

Being set in a certain part of the world =/= "Strong National Ties". I consider that for works where, if you try and change the setting, more than just the setting would change. The plot and characters would be fundamentally different, maybe even radically so. Or, they're so tied to their home culture that you can't separate them.

Edited by WarJay77 Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-05-10 10:18:07

Indiana Jones is mostly set outside the U.S.

GeneralGigan Since: Sep, 2020
2021-05-10 10:21:30

I’d say leave American and commonwealth spellings as is when it comes to articles, sure it looks unprofessional and inconsistent, but it’ll save us a lot of trouble as far as cleanup is concerned.

SKREEEEEEEONK!
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-05-10 10:44:08

Well, yeah, that's the default policy. The question here is what to do with the "strong national ties" exceptions.

But we might want a Wiki Talk thread to discuss the idea and leave this one to be about the edit war.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-05-10 15:06:00

Offa is still changing things to British spelling.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2021-05-10 21:12:08

Since nobody has mentioned a notifier yet, I sent ~offa a rudeness one for the edit reason on Characters.Harry Potter Death Eaters, provided the URLS for this ATT thread and Administrivia.American And Commonwealth Spellings, explained the thread was discussion which pages did or did not fall under "strong national ties" and what to do with them, invited them to join in the discussion, and requested they hold off on further edits on this matter, if only because they may go to waste if the consensus decides to change them back.

Edit: in hindsight, I realize I forgot to mention the edit warring. Ah well, if they show up here they'll see it. If they don't, it probably won't matter.

Edited by sgamer82
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2021-05-11 09:58:39

Don't worry about the edit warring notifier. I sent one when I started the thread.

Zuxtron (On A Trope Odyssey)
2021-05-11 10:04:15

For a while, I've been wondering: would it be a good idea to make an index of pages with strong American/British national ties, where one spelling is favored over the other? Though it might sometimes be subjective, determining whether or not a certain work goes on there.

Nightshade92 Since: Mar, 2021
2021-05-11 11:39:06

At that point wouldn't it just be more straightforward to have the pages for anything produced exclusively by US companies/creators use American spellings and every other page use Commonwealth spellings? I feel like that's where you'd eventually end up, anyway.

Personally, I'd rather use first come-first serve for everything; they're all legitimate spellings, after all. It's only an issue when people start edit warring over it, right?

Old Enough to Be Your Absurdly Youthful Mother
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-05-11 12:19:55

Yeah, let's not create another editing rule people need to memorize when first come etc. is so much simpler.

Top