Ruined Forever is not subjective.

I see some keep insisting that Ruined Forever get slapped with the subjective banner.

There is one problem with that. That implies being ruined (the subjective point) is the point of the trope, not the reaction of claiming that something is ruined.

This is not a subjective trope, but an audience reaction one. If someone boos a movie, they booed it. It's not up to personal opinion (save for trying to pull the From a Certain Point of View card).

Sure I can understand some kind of warning, but not the <<|SubjectiveTropes|>> banner, since it's not one of those.

EDIT: Never mind. I thought someone like a mod did that, and didn't want to take it off without permission. It turned out someone didn't like getting called on an Edit War on that page, and tried to label the page that way in retaliation. I took it off.

edited 27th Sep '10 10:06:43 PM by DragonQuestZ

People seem to have the same problem with The Scrappy, which isn't about a character being bad or poorly made, it's about a character being rejected by the fandom. Likewise, not subjective.

edited 28th Sep '10 3:24:36 PM by KnownUnknown

Umm, yes, those all meet the specific definition of subjective - someone's opinion as opposed to a fact evident in the work.

They are both audience reaction items. They aren't so much a storytelling trope as the result of storytelling.

We have no reliable measure of whether or not 'most' of the audience holds any one opinion. Mostly, that use of 'most' is covert recruitment to 'my opinion.'

And, we are not about judging works. Whether the opinion is widely held or not is not pertinent.

If someone feels it is important to relate that they think something sucked and that a lot people agree with them, it can go in a review.

edited 28th Sep '10 4:43:27 PM by FastEddie

Fandom reactions also have the problem of bias - fandom isn't always a Hive Mind. On one website a character might be a Scrappy; on another they might be an Ensemble Dark Horse. The bigger a fandom is, the more likely it is that people will disagree on things.

There's also the issue where internet fandom is also just a Vocal Minority of people who read/watch/otherwise enjoy a work.

OK mods, are you saying that Ruined FOREVER should get the banner?

edited 29th Sep '10 5:08:44 PM by SpellBlade

I would be willing to adjust the description to fit.

If the fandom has a minority vocal enough then why not? Less you can prove there is some huge silent majority that actually likes Scrappy? Then maybe it doesn't apply. If fans of the scrappy are automatic targets for fan haters though, then yes, definitely the scrappy.

You can't say the I don't think the audience isn't reacting a certain way, when they clearly are. Otherwise "Broken Base", and "Critical Backlash" would be subjective, despite citing how people have actually behaved.

Ruined Forever is just a remark about some parts of a fandom. The examples can go in the Ruined Forever page. That way the flame wars can all happen some place where the rest of us can just ignore it and go on with our enjoyment of the work.

edited 30th Sep '10 8:03:53 PM by FastEddie

BTW, I like the new banner. It gets the point across, and stands out even better than the old one.

If Ruined Forever is an audience reaction trope, shouldn't we just put all the examples in Troper Tales anyways?

No. Troper tales are personal opinions/experiences. The audience reaction write ups are about classes of reactions.

Now if you personally feel something is ruined forever, would that be for troper tales?

Yup

^^Wouldn't that be an example of They Changed It, Now It Sucks!, though?

This is more complaining about the whole show being ruined instead of just the changes sucking.

^^ No. The trope is about how a fan acts. A person expressing an opinion is not the same as observing that person express their opinion. The trope is about the observation, not the opinion.

A person observing himself having an opinion is a little too psycho even for us.

I think.

edited 2nd Oct '10 7:55:29 PM by FastEddie

Both of those argenfargles are about fan reactions. Ruined Forever is basically "fans often criticize things without giving them a proper chance", and They Changed It, Now It Sucks! is basically "fans criticize anything that changes in any way".

And therefore not Troper Tales.

Then we avoid making that page, as it would apparently Divide by Zero.

Great, now Troper Tales has been Ruined Forever.

Troper Tales was never above that level in the first place.

Hold on a minute, shouldn't They Changed It, Now It Sucks! get the audience reaction banner like on Ruined Forever?

The RF page is written like it's talking to one person; the only part I can see that even hints at an audience reaction is the tiny bit tacked on at the end.

The TCINIS page, on the other hand, is phrased to emphasis that it's more about the audience's reaction then about an individual's opinion.

Edited to get my point across better.

edited 8th Oct '10 2:11:15 PM by SpellBlade

We're going to make it so there is one tan banner saying don't put this on the main page and a black banner warning people off flamebait. Too many different kinds of banners right now, and the diff between audience reaction and subjective isn't really important.