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The Straight Will And Grace Are Like Brother And Sister.

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Deadlock Clock: Jan 15th 2011 at 11:59:00 PM
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#76: Jul 4th 2010 at 6:13:12 AM

^ That I'll actually get behind on Eliza and Higgins.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#77: Jul 4th 2010 at 2:15:42 PM

shimaspawn, I'm not familiar with any of the examples you mentioned, but I agree that examples of children should be left out, except maybe where we go on to see them as grown-ups and they still aren't together.

Under "Literature", that cuts the Beverly Cleary examples, Eustace & Jill, and probably Digory & Polly, too. (They don't seem to be together as adults, but I still don't think we have enough evidence that they qualify.)

I'd also cut David Copperfield and Agnes, who do end up together.

As for Eliza and Higgins... Really? The Straight Will And Grace? I didn't think they were that close (especially given how much animosity they share). OTOH, It's been a while since I read the play, and if the epilogue indicates that they qualify...

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#78: Jul 4th 2010 at 2:22:07 PM

Why don't we go ahead and delete the examples that we know are bad then or strike them through or something to indicate that they're not going back on the main page?

We've agreed that we need to include that children do not belong on this page so that needs to be added to the description.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#79: Jul 4th 2010 at 7:03:57 PM

Here's the updated literature list:

Literature (and a little Theatre):

The Straight Will And Grace:

  • Harry Dresden & Karrin Murphy from The Dresden Files
  • Eliza Doolittle & Professor Higgins from Pygmalion (I think they're more Like Brother and Sister. Thoughts?)

Like Brother and Sister:

  • Harry & Hermione from Harry Potter
  • Jo & Laurie from Little Women
  • Skif & Talia from Arrows Of The Queen
  • Princess Andromeda does this to her rescuer in Mercedes Lackey's Tales of the Five Hundred Kingdoms
  • Egwene & Rand from The Wheel Of Time
  • David Copperfield & Agnes (At least until the end of the novel?)

Unknown:

  • Aldo & De De in Johanna Hurwitz's books
  • Vlad & Lady Teldra in the Dragaera books
  • Bernie Rhodenbar & Carolyn in the Bernie Rhodenbar series of mysteries
  • Locke & Nazca in the Gentleman Bastard Sequence
  • Demon Ted & De Monica from Xanth
  • Anji & the Eighth Doctor in Doctor Who Expanded Universe
  • Archie & Patrice in 13

Removed:

  • Beezus Quimby & Henry Huggins and Ramona Quimby and Howie Kemp from the Beverly Cleary books
  • Digory & Polly and Jill & Eustace in The Chronicles Of Narnia.
  • Mercy & Samuel in Mercy Thompson
  • Wedge Antilles & Leia Organa from Star Wars
  • Mr Knightly and Emma

edit: Sorting Thread

edited 5th Jul '10 6:37:35 AM by BlueIce-Tea

Starry-Eyed Since: Mar, 2010
#80: Jul 4th 2010 at 7:25:13 PM

There should probably be a note on Eliza and Higgins that they are The Straight Will And Grace only in Pygmalion and not in My Fair Lady, where they are the Official Couple.

BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#81: Jul 4th 2010 at 7:31:45 PM

^ Just added a note about that (so I won't forget later).

edited 4th Jul '10 7:32:49 PM by BlueIce-Tea

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#82: Jul 4th 2010 at 7:46:30 PM

^^ I just reread the epilogue. They're The Straight Will And Grace as of it. He's more important than Freddy. Probably why he was upgraded to romantic lead in My Fair Lady.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#83: Jul 4th 2010 at 7:55:21 PM

^ Okay. I bow to your superior research effort! wink

JackMackerel from SOME OBSCURE MEDIA Since: Jul, 2010
#84: Jul 4th 2010 at 8:53:10 PM

@OP - not really, The Straight Will And Grace can be Like Brother and Sister, but doesn't have to be.

Supertrope? (Or am I using a malaproper again?)

Anyway, as said before, it's a close, non-romantic relationship between two people of the opposite gender.

Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#85: Jul 4th 2010 at 9:06:46 PM

^ It's more than just a close nonromantic relationship between two people of opposite gender. It's when that relationship becomes the most important relationship in their lives. Just having friends is People Sit On Chairs.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#86: Jul 5th 2010 at 12:18:41 PM

It's worth noting (and I'm tempted to add it to the page description, although it's already getting rather long) that although friendships between men and women are quite common now, this is a fairly recent phenomenon. Just look at the examples we have: the least recent good example of Like Brother and Sister is Jo & Laurie, which is just over a hundred years old. Even when Charles Dickens or Jane Austen wrote about opposite-sex friends, they usually ended up married. The Straight Will And Grace is even more recent. Besides Eliza & Higgins the oldest example I'm familiar with is The Avengers, which is from the sixties!

In contrast, Heterosexual Life-Partners has examples going back to Homer and The Bible. And while the same-sex equivalent of The Straight Will And Grace is Heterosexual Life-Partners, the same-sex equivalent of Like Brother and Sister would be... two guys or two girls who are really close friends. Which is really People Sit On Chairs.

I'm not really arguing. I guess I'm just pointing out that in works more than a few decades old (or set more than a few decades ago), close, opposite-sex friendships really aren't People Sit On Chairs. And given how many people still have to explain, "She's a girl, and she's my friend, but she's not my girlfriend..." it's debatable whether it's even yet achieved this status.

edited 5th Jul '10 12:20:19 PM by BlueIce-Tea

BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#87: Jul 15th 2010 at 1:35:45 PM

Update:

Literature (and a little Theatre):

The Straight Will And Grace:

  • Harry Dresden & Karrin Murphy from The Dresden Files
  • Eliza Doolittle & Professor Higgins from Pygmalion

Like Brother and Sister:

Unknown:

  • Aldo & De De in Johanna Hurwitz's books
  • Vlad & Lady Teldra in the Dragaera books
  • Bernie Rhodenbar & Carolyn in the Bernie Rhodenbar series of mysteries
  • Locke & Nazca in the Gentleman Bastard Sequence
  • Demon Ted & De Monica from Xanth
  • Anji & the Eighth Doctor in Doctor Who Expanded Universe
  • Archie & Patrice in 13

Removed:

  • Beezus Quimby & Henry Huggins and Ramona Quimby and Howie Kemp from the Beverly Cleary books
  • Digory & Polly and Jill & Eustace in The Chronicles Of Narnia.
  • Mercy & Samuel in Mercy Thompson
  • Wedge Antilles & Leia Organa from Star Wars
  • Mr Knightly and Emma

Sorting Thread

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#88: Jul 15th 2010 at 1:41:02 PM

The Circle of Magic are disqualified as being kids.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#89: Jul 15th 2010 at 2:19:55 PM

Starting a new category...

Live Action T.V.:

The Straight Will And Grace:

Like Brother and Sister:

Unknown:

Removed:

Sorting Thread

edited 15th Jul '10 2:21:06 PM by BlueIce-Tea

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#90: Jul 15th 2010 at 2:26:52 PM

  • The Smallville examples are all sexual at some point or another.
  • Tony and Kate are just coworkers. He flirts. She strikes him down.
  • Mal and Zoe are like brother and sister, because in the end, Wash matters more to her and Zoe is not Mal's primary relationship by far.
  • The Tenth Doctor and Donna are just travelling companions.
  • Daniel and Samantha are neither. They're coworkers and part of the same Nakama, but they aren't Like Brother and Sister.

edited 15th Jul '10 2:27:15 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
mack Since: Jan, 2001
#91: Jul 17th 2010 at 7:20:51 AM

I see Like Brother and Sister perhaps as being 'mis-used' and should be retained as a sub-trope of Ship Sinking, and examples being when either one or both of the pairing describe their relationship as such. And the page summary being re-written to make this clear.

Leaving The Straight Will And Grace (which really needs a rename like idk Male Female Platonic Friendship or something succinct) for couples where there simply isn't any shipping or ship teasing at all. Or something.

edited 17th Jul '10 7:22:16 AM by mack

mack Since: Jan, 2001
#92: Jul 17th 2010 at 8:07:31 AM

I'm gonna explain some of these relationships, people who've been tracking this topic can decide if they need to be put in either trope or cut completely. Straight will and grace is being considered as "most important relationship" correct? I'll use that as my baseline.

BTW, does one side also being part of a Heterosexual Life-Partners friendship prevent their friendship with someone of the opposite sex counting as The Straight Will And Grace if the Heterosexual Life-Partners friendship is more important than The Straight Will And Grace one?

  • Clarissa & Sam from Clarissa Explains It All

  • Tim & Daisy from Spaced

  • Jerry & Elaine from Seinfeld
    • Had a relationship before the timeline of the series, but were basically The Straight Will And Grace except for one episode which is apparently Discontinuity. George's relationship with Jerry is more important to the show and Jerry since it's been ongoing since high school I believe.

  • J.D. & Carla and Turk & Elliott from Scrubs

  • Veronica & Wallace from Veronica Mars
    • Not really either. Their friendship started when the timeline of the show starts, only going for about 3 years once the show ends. Veronica has much more important relationships with Duncan and Logan as well. Their friendship also seems to become less important during the final season.

  • Andy & Maggie from Extras
    • This is very much The Straight Will And Grace. There isn't even a hint of romantic interaction, and their friendship is a main driving force behind the series as a whole.

  • Harm & Mac from JAG

  • Daniel & Samantha from Stargate SG-1
    • Neither. They are part of a Band of Brothers. And their relationship with Jack is more important than their relationship with each other.

  • Hannah Montana & Oliver
    • Neither. Their relationships with Lily are more important the one with each other.

edited 19th Jul '10 6:32:38 AM by mack

Starry-Eyed Since: Mar, 2010
#93: Jul 17th 2010 at 8:33:46 AM

Re: Circle of Magic, in ''The Will of the Empress" they're all grown up, and are still all Like Brother and Sister, and this is outright stated when they mention that others have tried pairing them up before.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#94: Jul 17th 2010 at 9:15:42 AM

^ Gotcha. I haven't made it that far yet.

And being part of Heterosexual life partners that are more important would disqualify this from being the Most Important relationship. No exceptions. Any guys and girls that are just friends is a bit too people sit on chairs.

edited 17th Jul '10 9:18:48 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#95: Jul 20th 2010 at 6:11:39 AM

I'd tend to agree that one can't be part of Heterosexual Life-Partners and The Straight Will And Grace at the same time, especially if the former relationship is portrayed as more important than the latter.

Live Action T.V.:

The Straight Will And Grace:

Like Brother and Sister:

Unknown:

Removed:

Sorting Thread

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#96: Jul 20th 2010 at 7:57:54 AM

Morgan & Garcia are more Will They or Won't They? with as much as they flirt from what I've seen. There's a little too much of a sexual current with them.

The Doctor and Donna did not have any UST and they certainly cared about each other deeply but she wasn't his most important, so Like Brother and Sister for them.

Justin and Daphne... well, he's gay and she's his fag hag so... that's a different trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
savage Nice Hat from an underground bunker Since: Jan, 2001
#98: Jul 29th 2010 at 6:58:07 AM

I'm going to chime in for the last time on this one. At least something does seem to being done with this, finally. That being said I'm still in favor of a merge but I'm clearly being outvoted here so I'll let that drop. I do want to note just... some of the basic problems with these tropes and the related ones that have come up in the first place, just... ignore me if you don't want to hear it, it's sort of a It Just Bugs Me! for This Very Wiki, is all :P

Huge quote block follows from Blue Ice-Tea:

It's worth noting (and I'm tempted to add it to the page description, although it's already getting rather long) that although friendships between men and women are quite common now, this is a fairly recent phenomenon. Just look at the examples we have: the least recent good example of Like Brother And Sister is Jo & Laurie, which is just over a hundred years old. Even when Charles Dickens or Jane Austen wrote about opposite-sex friends, they usually ended up married. The Straight Will And Grace is even more recent. Besides Eliza & Higgins the oldest example I'm familiar with is The Avengers, which is from the sixties!

In contrast, Heterosexual Life Partners has examples going back to Homer and The Bible. And while the same-sex equivalent of The Straight Will And Grace is Heterosexual Life Partners, the same-sex equivalent of Like Brother And Sister would be... two guys or two girls who are really close friends. Which is really People Sit On Chairs.

This, I think, is the major reason, and issue, I have with The Straight Will And Grace. If you say it's a heterogendered version of Heterosexual Life-Partners, okay, that's fine. But, the equivalent for Like Brother and Sister really -isn't- like having two same gender friends, it's like having a -best- friend. And as Blue Ice-Tea noted, an adult having a close friendship with a person of the opposite gender who you are not romantically interested in is a fairly recent phenomenon... but also, so is the assumption of Ho Yay between two close friends of the same gender, especially since it's only recently such an assumption would not lead to shock and scandal. But for good or ill, that's something we're stuck with in modern Western culture, I'm not here to debate the existence of Heterosexual Life-Partners as a trope, in fact if anything I'd defend it. But I'm getting a bit off track.

The point of this rant actually seems to have gotten away from me (it's several hours past my bedtime as it is). The two tropes as being described now are adequately differentiated so that I can see they're not the same trope. Maybe it's just that I don't see The Straight Will And Grace as a particularly realistic trope, at all. Strangely enough I can comprehend Heterosexual Life-Partners but the gender-swap version just seems silly to me.

Either way it has a terrible name and needs work there. Maybe we can get to work on that next?

edited 29th Jul '10 6:59:19 AM by savage

Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#99: Jul 30th 2010 at 6:38:52 AM

Unfortunately, I expect to be very busy for the next month, and probably won't be able to contribute much to the discussion/editing. I hope the work on these pages continues, though. I think this is a very worthwhile project.

I think someone said we should hold off on renaming The Straight Will And Grace until we'd finished sorting through the examples, but since I won't be around, I'll make a couple of suggestions. One is Platonic Life-Partners, to go along with Heterosexual Life-Partners. Or, since I think HLP is a terrible name, we could rename both of them. Say, The Not Romantic Couple and The Not Gay Couple, or Platonic Life-Partners and Bromantic Life Partners.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#100: Jul 30th 2010 at 7:27:37 AM

I was the one who said we should hold off until we had a firm definition. We seem to have that. The only problem is that we don't know all the media and a lot of people haven't given good enough explanation.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

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