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The Straight Will And Grace Are Like Brother And Sister.

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Deadlock Clock: Jan 15th 2011 at 11:59:00 PM
Lullabee Chuft-Captain (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Chuft-Captain
#1: May 11th 2010 at 7:48:01 PM

Is there really that much difference between The Straight Will And Grace and Like Brother and Sister? If there is a difference, the articles should contain something stating the difference and they should be on the Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions. If they're not, we really should merge them.

I kind of get the feeling they're different, but we need to be more straightforward about what that difference is, and I'm not sure how to put it.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#2: May 11th 2010 at 7:57:28 PM

Like Brother and Sister are two unrelated people, male and female who are close like siblings, rather than romantically involved.

The Straight Will And Grace are two unrelated people of opposite genders who are not romantically involved with each other but who many or most folks who meet them assume are romantically involved or even married because the friendship is so close.

savage Nice Hat from an underground bunker Since: Jan, 2001
#3: May 12th 2010 at 7:28:53 AM

I went over this the last time this thread came up. Vote to merge, extremely strong.

There is -no- functional difference between the tropes other than the fact that apparently The Straight Will And Grace seems to have to do with series that focus more on the She Is Not My Girlfriend part of it.

This is the summation of Like Brother and Sister, from a character's point of view: "What? No, dude, she's like my sister! that's just... dude."

From The Straight Will And Grace: "What? No, dude, she's like my best friend!"

As I pointed out before, again, if you have a very close friend, they are like family to you. That is the whole -point- of Nakama. The whole reason behind both of these tropes is that this person is your Nakama and you're not sexually interested in them because of that.

The -only- thing that seems to make these different -at all- is that I must -guess- that The Straight Will And Grace examples are from series where this is a -major- plot point, whereas the Like Brother and Sister examples lean more towards where this is just something that comes up to explain -why- She Is Not My Girlfriend.

Which makes them The Same But More. Which is why I vote strongly merge.

I have not seen a single argument to make me not think this. Ever.

Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#4: May 12th 2010 at 7:43:17 AM

My relationships to my sister is very close, but it is nothing like my relationship with my husband.

savage Nice Hat from an underground bunker Since: Jan, 2001
#5: May 12th 2010 at 8:02:18 AM

I'm assuming that's supposed to be disagreeing with me, but that's the whole point of Like Brother and Sister. They -aren't- in a relationship. How does that differentiate from The Straight Will And Grace then?

I really don't see the difference. I'm married, I have a close friendship with my brother and with a good friend I grew up with. I have all of these connections in my own life, and if you're saying there's some sort of special 'mate' sort of love that can be between people that aren't mates and is yet closer than siblings, well, I'd say you're dead wrong.

Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Rhiow Since: Dec, 1969
#6: May 12th 2010 at 8:03:31 AM

Against a merge. The way I see it, Like Brother and Sister is someone's refutation of a possible relationship. The Straight Will And Grace is for people it hasn't really occurred to or have a different sort of relationship. Not all friends are like siblings. You can just as easily have one and not the other in media as well.

That being said, why hasn't The Straight Will And Grace been renamed yet?

Lullabee Chuft-Captain (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Chuft-Captain
#7: May 12th 2010 at 8:23:48 AM

Oh, and if we're going to keep them separate, they should have different page quotes. Because, uh, that's really not convincing me they're two different tropes. Like Brother and Sister should keep the quote it has, but someone needs to find a new one for The Straight Will And Grace.

savage Nice Hat from an underground bunker Since: Jan, 2001
#8: May 12th 2010 at 8:25:10 AM

Like Brother and Sister isn't a refutation, that's She Is Not My Girlfriend. Like Brother and Sister is when it is stated that the characters are very important to each other, that they would even die for each other, but they're not in that sort of relationship. They're Like Brother and Sister.

Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
savage Nice Hat from an underground bunker Since: Jan, 2001
#9: May 12th 2010 at 8:31:23 AM

I'd just like to add that most of the examples are identical between the two. Buffy and Xander? On both. Hermione and Harry? Both. Dragon Age's Female Mage PC and Jowan? I mean come on. If there's so much overlap that most editors can't tell the difference, THEY'RE THE SAME TROPE.

edited 12th May '10 8:31:48 AM by savage

Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
jackrichards Since: Mar, 2010
#10: May 12th 2010 at 8:56:35 AM

There's a lot of overlap and a lot of poor examples. I mean, a lot of the examples are "guy likes girl, girl says 'you're like a brother to me!'"

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#11: May 12th 2010 at 9:42:37 AM

I'd say cut The Straight Will And Grace since it's a Character Named Trope and a poor reference at that.

edited 12th May '10 9:43:05 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Rhiow Since: Dec, 1969
#12: May 12th 2010 at 10:05:44 AM

Why cut it? I dislike it for the same reasons. It needs a rename. And I am betting a lot of the examples are bad rather than genuine overlaps.

Also, isn't She Is Not My Girlfriend a denial for two people who aren't against it? Like Brother and Sister is more an explanation that this is just how things are; They're not going to be dating.

AddythePawnSlayer Caissa's DeathAngel from Glasgow Since: Jan, 2001
Caissa's DeathAngel
#13: May 12th 2010 at 10:19:25 AM

"if you're saying there's some sort of special 'mate' sort of love that can be between people that aren't mates and is yet closer than siblings, well, I'd say you're dead wrong. "

I've got three friendships which are this close, it's definitely true for me. I'm convinced half the people I know either want or expect me to marry one of them, but I have a girlfriend who definitely isn't among them so it isn't happening.

Would you kill your best friend, can you save yourself?
NateTheGreat Since: Jan, 2001
#14: May 12th 2010 at 2:17:10 PM

Perhaps the difference is internal vs. external perspective? Like Brother and Sister people like being that close and don't care about the confusion of others. The Straight Will And Grace just happen to be that close, but do care about the confusion of others, having to reiterate that they aren't in a romantic relationship.

BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#15: May 22nd 2010 at 2:26:49 PM

There may be a subtle difference, but it seems like splitting hairs to me. Merge them. And use "Like Brother and Sister". I don't object to character-named tropes, but I do object to the "Straight" part of The Straight Will And Grace, since there are also plenty of examples of close relationships between non-straight people.

BigT grimAuxiliatrix Since: Jan, 2001
grimAuxiliatrix
#16: May 24th 2010 at 12:04:24 PM

I thought one was for acting like a couple when they aren't, while the other was acting like brother and sister when they are not. I don't really see the similarity.

And of course we should limit both to where it is mentioned onscreen. Otherwise both are inherently subjective.

Everyone Has An Important Job To Do
lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower Since: Oct, 2009
Tsundere pet.
#17: May 24th 2010 at 1:02:26 PM

Keep separate. It is possible to have a close and devoted friendship that does not have family/sibling dynamics.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#18: May 24th 2010 at 7:00:34 PM

I agree that some friends can be like brother and sister, while other friendships can be nothing like sibling relationships. However the argument that there should be two different tropes for them implies that there are only two different kinds of platonic relationship possible between a man and a woman: sibling-like friendship, and platonic couple-dom. The truth is there's a huge variety of possible relationships. A relationship between a man and a woman may resemble that of a married couple without the romance; a brother and sister; Best Friends Forever; Best Mates; parent and child; mentor and protégé; etc. It may involve only platonic feelings; unrequited love; unrequited lust; lust acted on once, but never again; warm fuzzies; vitriolic bating; Undying Loyalty; or any of the other human emotions that cement relationships.

My point is that you can't break male-female relationships down into just two categories. Yes, some friends may be more like siblings, and some may be more like a married couple, but many straddle the line between the two, and others fit neither. Moreover, it's not always easy for the audience to tell the exact nature of the relationship. I mean, it's fairly easy (usually) to tell whether two people are romantically involved, but not nearly as easy to tell whether they think of each other as siblings, friends, best girlfriends, best mates, etc. Not to mention that one person may feel one way ("You're just like a big brother to me!"), and another person may feel a different way ("You're like the pet goldfish I never had!").

Since you can't possibly make a separate trope for every nuance, I think lumping them together into one category is perfectly sensible. One man + one woman + no romance = a single trope.

Rant over.

edited 24th May '10 7:07:37 PM by BlueIce-Tea

HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#19: May 24th 2010 at 7:39:28 PM

I am betting a lot of the examples are bad rather than genuine overlaps.
Are you betting or did you actually look at them?

Anyway, seconding Big T and not sure how I feel about a rename. Leaning towards, because it's vague and misleading (it sounds to me like practically the opposite of what it actually means).

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
ChupaCabo Fire! Fire! Heh, heh.... from on a beach, with goats. Since: Aug, 2009
Fire! Fire! Heh, heh....
#20: May 25th 2010 at 4:15:35 AM

These are, if not the exact same trope, so close as to make them practically indistinguishable. Vote to merge.

Big T's point is well taken. If the two tropes were actually used that way (and were rewritten to be as clearly differentiated as Big T describes them), then a case could be made for two tropes. As it stands, they're the same trope.

Rhiow Since: Dec, 1969
#21: May 25th 2010 at 5:04:24 AM

I did look. Some of the examples, anyway. Such as in Harry Potter with Harry and Hermione. They're Like Brother and Sister by direct confirmation by Harry. But despite being listed on The Straight Will And Grace, they are not assumed to be together by anyone but Ron and the fans. Nobody really tries setting them up together. Therefore, it is a bad example rather than genuine overlap.

But can we rename The Straight Will And Grace? That's just a bad title.

edited 25th May '10 5:05:30 AM by Rhiow

BlueIce-Tea Since: Dec, 1969
#22: Jun 25th 2010 at 5:52:42 AM

BigT:

"I thought one was for acting like a couple when they aren't, while the other was acting like brother and sister when they are not. I don't really see the similarity."

Actually, it's funny. I've been arguing in favour of a merge, but suddenly I think I understand what the difference is - or at least what it should be.

The Straight Will And Grace are a couple who are very close, almost like a romantic couple, but not romantically involved. The same-sex equivalent would be Heterosexual Life-Partners.

Like Brother and Sister are two opposite-sex friends with no romantic interest in each other. They are not necessarily inseparable; they may not even always get along. The same-sex equivalent would be any two same-sex friends.

Obviously there's a lot of overlap here. Most examples of The Straight Will And Grace would also fit into Like Brother and Sister, but the inverse is not necessarily true. Put another way, The Straight Will And Grace is a stronger version of Like Brother and Sister.

As an example, take Jo and Laurie from Little Women. They are lifelong friends who care for each other deeply, but are not romantically involved. They are Like Brother and Sister. But they are not each other's primary significant others: Laurie has his wife, and Jo (eventually) has her husband, and in both cases the married relationship is portrayed as the more important one. So they are not The Straight Will And Grace.

Of course, the current write-ups in no way reflect this distinction. Which is why they need to be changed.

So, does my analysis make sense, or am I just talking through my hat? Thoughts?

edited 25th Jun '10 5:54:11 AM by BlueIce-Tea

NateTheGreat Since: Jan, 2001
#23: Jun 25th 2010 at 6:10:31 AM

It looks like one of those "there is a difference, but it's so subtle it may confuse new tropers" situations. Either they need to be redefined to be further apart so there are fewer shared examples, or the pages need to be merged under a slightly wider definition.

edited 25th Jun '10 6:15:12 AM by Nate The Great

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#24: Jun 25th 2010 at 6:34:36 AM

I think the big primary distinction is that The Straight Will And Grace they are the other person's primary relationship. Anyone they date will be second to that one.

Like Brother and Sister assumes that they're close, at they aren't attracted to each other, but at the same time, they aren't each other's most important person like the other example.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#25: Jun 25th 2010 at 8:26:01 AM

I'm with Blu Ice Tea and Shimaspawn on this one,. Thee is a difference, and it can be either subtle or blatant. But there's a significant difference between "a non-sexual, non-romantic relationship that is the characters' primary relationship" and "a non-sexual, non-romantic relationship". It's a clear super/sub distinctions: (X) and (X, plus Y)


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