sean, i think you're letting a bit of Fan Myopia into your argument. yes, the beatles were huge. you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who doesn't know about the beatles. but only beatles fans, or what's worse, only fans who are interested in the history of the beatles as a band, would know who pete best is without the proper context, though. naming a trope after him is like naming a trope about background character of the week in buffy— even people who watched the show and are familiar with the characters may not know who this person was, and so the name loses all effect.
it's very different from bewitched, which is very well-known in its own right, and darrin was the male lead. anybody who caught two random episodes of the show could've noticed there were two darrins, and the trope does have "the other" in the name, to add some context even if you didn't know. for example, i had no idea some other actor was cast as marty mcfly before michael j. fox, but just looking at the trope name for The Other Marty i figured it had to be something along those lines.
it's why i was thinking of a name like He Came Before Ringo or Pete Was There Before Ringo, because it adds just a little bit more concept without completely wiping out the beatles reference.
My two cents.
Pete Best is a man who is literally famous for not being famous. He -is- the Most Triumphant Example of this trope, at least where music is involved (The Beatles being the most famous pop group in the history of Western culture), and his split with the group shortly before they made it big is infamous in the rock and roll fandom. That passes the 'in a certain fandom' on 'when not to rename'. Also, Pete Best passes the One Mario Limit (how many Pete Bests have you ever heard of?)
Finally, I'm going to make myself the poster boy of this part of the Trope Renaming Guidelines. Is it broken? Prove it's broken. If it ain't broke DON'T fix it. And this is, as mentioned, a month and a half old.
I voted keep on this one, it looks like it is more or less even with a slight lead on 'renames'... that doesn't look like consensus to me.
edited 7th Oct '10 12:19:15 PM by savage
Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it."Pete Best is a man who is literally famous for not being famous."
That is a paradox, not to mention a bit Fan Myopia to think he's that well known. Furthermore, "The X" names require being iconic, which the definition of the trope makes impossible.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.He is famous (he is well-known) for not being famous (as a member of the Beatles). Just because it is a paradox doesn't mean it is not valid. Wikipedia has a quite sizable article on the man
with nearly 100 citations from dozens of sources, the majority of the article is devoted to the fact that he is this trope personified.
That still doesn't make him famous enough to be iconic. Plus those are from people who bothered to learn the history of the Beatles, which is not enough for instant name recognition on the level of Spock or Ebenezer Scrooge.
So known among some for being obscure does mean he can't be iconic, which is what "The X" name requires. Otherwise context is needed in the name.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.This Wiki's definition of iconic is "well known enough through Pop-Cultural Osmosis that you could ask a random passerby on the street and have a decent chance of having them arrive at the concept behind the trope". The Pete Best fails this broadly.
Seriously, I don't see why this name is even being considered for a keep. Simply being the Most Triumphant Example is insufficient criteria for being the Trope Namer, especially when there are plenty of clear, snappy titles to choose from that don't require Fan Myopia.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Plus Most Triumphant Example was NOT meant to be used that way, especially since it's not to be objective.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.It seems like you just have it in for poor Mr. Best. You seem to have trapped him in a Catch-22.
Essentially, "This trope is for obscure people. If Pete Best is obscure, he's not well-known enough to be the Trope Namer. If he is well-known enough to be the Trope Namer (And I would argue this is the case...he's pretty much known for being..well, Pete Best; to use one example, Come As You Are: The Story of Nirvana actually uses the phrase "The Pete Best of Nirvana" in relation to one of their former drummers), well then too bad for him, that means he's not obscure, thus not an example of the trope, and thus can't be the Trope Namer."
Is that your argument?
So my basic interpretation of your argument is correct, though the motive isn't "We have it in for Pete Best" so much as "The trope by its very nature prohibits there being a Trope Namer for it; it just so happens to be currently named for Pete Best". Right?
And no, my vote to Keep was based on the fact that I really don't see what the problem with the original name was (In short, I don't have an answer for the Catch-22..I also don't consider that a reason to rename it).
That's my position, yes. The criteria for a character named trope is that the namer be best-known and widely-known for exemplifying the trope. The definition of this tope means that even those people who are best-known for being examples aren't going to be widely-known because they're examples. At best, they'll be the answer to a trivia question.
Once again, I'd like to see some misuse or I'd say leave it be. If somehow this gets bullied through even though there's clearly no consensus, how about Pete Best Used To Be A Beatle then?
edited 11th Oct '10 11:12:15 AM by savage
Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.The cons are NO MISUSE HAS BEEN PROVEN.
Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.Here are some wicks, not counting indexes.
- Destinys Child — Apparently correct, referring to I guess former members (don't know the members' names apart from Beyonce, so I'm just going by context).
- Ive Got A Secret — Incorrect. Just mentioned Pete himself.
- Whats My Line — Apparently correct. Again, going by context.
- Acting for Two — Not sure it's correct. It's listed as an inversion to that trope, and I don't think it works that way.
- American Gladiators — May or may not be correct. Not sure if the first 13 episodes where big for the show.
- Ansem Retort — Not sure. Haven't read the comic, so even if it was an in-universe example, I don't know if it was applied correctly.
- Anthropomorphic Personification — Correct, as it refers to Discworld using the trope as a joke.
- Aqua Teen Hunger Force — Haven't seen the show, so I'll need someone else to tell us if it fits.
- Around The Horn — I guess correct.
- Barenaked Ladies — I guess correct.
- Biting-the-Hand Humor — Correct, as it refers to Craig Kilborn of The Daily Show.
- British Accents — Incorrect, as it refers to Best himself.
- Buddy Holly — I guess correct.
- Cats — Not sure if it's correct. The context doesn't seem to quite fit. It depends on the definition of the trope.
- Country Music — Correct, since it merely lists the trope.
Well so far there doesn't seem to be more than a little misuse. The name still sucks, but like The Mario, some made it work anyway.
edited 11th Oct '10 4:46:36 PM by DragonQuestZ
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.And I'd say no on American Gladiators. It was famous from the beginning. The only reason they aren't remembered is because they're short run characters on a long runner. American Gladiators had a lot of other short run Gladiators. You can't have a The Pete Best with a rotating cast like that.
The Ansem Retort having read it, isn't really an example either.
edited 11th Oct '10 6:43:29 PM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Crown Description:
Vote up for yes, down for no.

I never said Darrin is obscure so it's unwise to suggest that I did. I said that people like Pete Best are just as widely known.
And seeing that both The Beatles and Bewitched are nearly 40 years old and about as equally accessible as the other, I'd argue that younger generations on this wiki are likely to be as familiar with one than as they are with the other. Likewise, there's just as big a chance that both would be totally unknown to people in the same camp.
And Eric Stoltz and Marty McFly are no different.
edited 6th Oct '10 5:17:05 PM by SeanMurrayI