Catherine- from the creators of Persona

And I fear the companies will get the wrong message.

They'll see backlash over gay characters and think people dont want them and not use them when that's not the problem.

A Morton's Fork. Eat the scraps we give you or get none at all.

the thing with Katsura Hashino's Persona Games (and Cathrine obviously), is there is clearly an interest in talking about these subjects, otherwise it wouldn't come up near constantly.

Again, what made Cathrine fairly interesting to me, a romantic asexual, wasn't the love triangle nonsense the game spent the first 80% of its runtime on, or its heavy sexual nature, but the interesting metaphor for societal expectations with the nightmares, and the main villain basically imposing his own views of gender dynamics on the main cast, and the end resolution, regardless of which girl Vincent picks, being a giant fuck you to the imposed worldview, calling it out to be cruel and damaging.

More of that context.◊ (Spoilers, obvs)

Edited by edvedd on Feb 17th 2019 at 1:33:09 AM

Literally Alien Angels. Big Brother even descends with a Pink Halo during the boss fight.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 17th 2019 at 1:44:13 AM

I learned one of tge reasons they removed the transexual as a female pro-wrestler joke is likely because that has happend in Japan since the originals release.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 17th 2019 at 2:32:45 AM

So some say this scene is a lot better than it seems with context, others say it's just as bad. Will be... interesting to see where this goes.

The whole "It might occur earlier" narrative is blatantly false. There is absolutely no reason to think that and there is reason to think the opposite.

Edited by LordVatek on Feb 17th 2019 at 11:54:08 AM

x6 Honestly, they can go fuck themselves. Like, seriously. If all they got from this shitstorm is that "we shouldn't include queer characters because of the Unpleasable Fanbase" then they really shouldn't include queer characters at all. And let's be real here, Atlus is a company, like any others. Its main concern is sales, and a game like this will sell regardless of any criticism. Just like Fire Emblem Fates being a financial success even with its Cure Your Gays storyline.

you mean aside from the part where there's time travel in that ending but not the others and it pretty much change the entire life of vincent as we knew it ?

Edited by Yumil on Feb 17th 2019 at 6:24:53 PM

@Beary Scary: I personally found some of the choices that you get in regards to Order to be rather backwards.

The only thing about the new ending of Full Body i like is that vincent ends up with Catherine over Katherine, if only for the fact that the latter was meant to be more sympathetic, but came across as a cold, manipulative bitch instead of someone who actually loved Vincent.

I mean that's the problem isn't it?

Then why does everyone dress and look the same in the present days when they're in their 30s, the only exception being Erica? And one throwaway line about with Erica suggesting that she's still identify as female to flirt with Toby doesn't excuse everything. This scene is embodiment of Unfortunate Implications, with multiple valid interpretations, and many of them are just yikes-inducing.
I've literally seen people arguing that Catherine's time travel somehow cured Erica's of her gender dysphoria, and that'a good thing somehow. Bleh. The whole ending a gross Rorschach test for people to read their transphobia in.

Edited by HottoKenai on Feb 18th 2019 at 12:34:11 AM

For the record I'm not interested in this individual game, but I'm going to follow this chutzpah because I like several of Hashino's other works and have an... interest in seeing where this will take his reputation. Apparently the Japanese fanbase hates it too.

That's a very good point that I would've liked to be seen brought up earlier in the thread so I can get where people are coming from instead of looking like they're willing to ignore the fact this is supposed to take place before she transitions to have a reason to complain.

there's no problem if the marriage simply takes place beore she transitions and it could happen considering the entire shtick of the ending is changing the past. Now if the scene is literally the same as in any other endings, there's indeed a problem.

Edited by Yumil on Feb 17th 2019 at 6:54:29 PM

We don't know what was going on in the past that lead to Eric disappearing to become Erica. But her potentially choosing to become a woman at a different point life is entirely possible.

Catherine also reshapes her life to live as a human in that ending. Like she apparently only reveals shes a Succubus during a fight with Vincent years later, and even changed her hairstyle to have long hair.

Rins ending is damn cute though. They travel the universe with Vincent as his producer. Johnny himself enters a relationship with a half-pink alien girl of a different species.

Also something about Rin: Hes the one playing the music in the game. The music I heard removes prejudices in peoples hearts, and during his amnesiac state for most of the game he plays the music saving the lives of the men in the Nightmare(it slows down the blocks falling) which makes Mutton mad enough to take him captive since it gives them enough time to survive until the next batch of blocks descend. Hes such a joke Rins big brothers are humiliating him in their Minions form.

Ericas the one who got him girls clothes btw. Even warned Vincent not to try to romance Rin since she knew the truth and was worried how'd he react.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 17th 2019 at 9:59:57 AM

The thing is that Toby never met pre-transition Erica (which was also to set up a transphobic joke in the original Catherine). Adding to the fact that everyone looks the same, the most positive interpretation of that ending is that her transition was delayed to after the main game so they could make a punchline.

Edited by LordVatek on Feb 17th 2019 at 1:03:06 PM

okay, thanks for the context, then I'm legitimately stumped. I have no idea what they were thinking there and I'm not in a hurry to find out.

Eric and Toby are portrayed as being pretty close even in that ending, with Rins ending even making them have a proper Relationship Upgrade.

I remember when this game was originally aimed at adults and was mostly a grounded look at actual relationships with some supernatural embellishments on the side for fun and flavor. It wasn't quite that even when it was new but it at least tried to be somewhat outside the demon ending.

Now we've got all this time travel bullshit, fan service voice tracks, and other superfluous elements muddying everything on top of the game's other flaws.

This man cannot make a game that sticks to its guns to save his life.

Except the supernatural influence was far greaterthan that. The Nightmare, Thomas Mutton, both of Catherine's ending, Trisha who was showing it all to us via a television and who was an obvious anagram of Ishtar, the old twins, the way Catherine completely vanishes, etc.

And almost all of that was window dressing that you could separate from Vincent and his waking world.

Most of the endings tend to be things that could happen to actual people (the Mars expedition aside - though it's possible that could be a thing in the future - and of course the ridiculous demon ending) and most of the plot was about a normal man and his normal girlfriend and the seemingly normal girl he was cheating on her with. And yeah, it turns out Catherine is a succubus wish fulfillment girlfriend (imagine that in a Hashino game) and the bartender turns out to be Satan, but prior to all that it was about as grounded as an Atlus game gets.

You couldn't because said supernatural was involved in him having a fling with Catherine and intentionally complicating his relationship with Katherine. Not to mention the people he frequently meets in the bar are people from the nightmares he helps so they survive.

Remove the supernatural and you're just left with a guy who isn't willing to go further in his relationship with Katherine. No Catherine, no nightmares, no nothing. Just him twiddling his thumbs trying to change absolutely nothing.

This really does make the rather consistent presence of gender and sexual politics issues in other Hashino games a lot more prominent, as well as the fact that he seems to handle these topics the worst of the Atlus stable.

This is more or less how I feel yeah.

The original Catherine had some rather noticeable flaws, but I respected it all the same because it was one of the only games of its ilk that tried to be about grounded, adult romantic relationships instead of the usual stuff aimed at teenagers in most JRPG's and whatever, which I mostly find uninteresting and difficult to relate to at this point in my life. And for that, I'll always have some fondness for it, even if it isn't perfect. It isn't as if there that many games trying to do what it did, even now.

Even beyond the supernatural stuff in Catherine though, I didn't really think it undermined what the game was trying to do. The emotional core of what the game was about wasn't really that affected by it.

But the moment I saw the stuff about Full Body I knew it was going to be rubbish. It falls back into the same tired pattern of them adding stuff for the sake of fanservice, novelty and Wish-Fulfillment, without any consideration for how it affects the integrity of the story or themes.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Feb 17th 2019 at 7:18:18 AM

Eh the original had Wish Fulfillment if you chose Catherine. A literal succubus whose dad was the ruler of Hell? Being the One just for her, having a bumbling Otaku for a father in said ruler of hell who can't do anything but feebly deny it? Taking over hell wih his own harem of demon women? All Wish-Fulfillment.

Strangely enough the new Catherine ending ends with it treating it as being Catherines wish fulfillment, because Vincent always notices Katherine in the scenes between the two and she forces him to return his attention to her. Having a plethora of Devil Children Half-Incubi and Succubus kids with him and leaving him ignorant of her true nature for years.

The Rin ending is definitely full on fantastical and well, weird.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 17th 2019 at 3:35:53 AM