Interestingly, Avatar: The Last Air-Bender was the most popular animated kid's show on Netflix for 2020. I don't know that I'd call it specifically a "kid's show, but that's how they rate it. They consider Naruto'' a "kid's show," too (it was # 3).
This may be controversial, but I'd say most anime I've seen seems to be aimed at a teenaged audience. Even some that have what we'd think of as some definitely mature content seem to be about at the emotional level of teenagers. Not all, certainly (I'd say the various Ghost in the Shell series' are aimed at an adult audience), but a lot. Obviously, we don't get everything the Japanese anime industry produces in the West, and obviously I haven't even seen everything that is available, but I wonder what the breakdown is for anime. How much is produced that's aimed at kids, teenagers, and adults?
Why would they want to?
Edited by Robbery on Mar 21st 2021 at 2:33:05 AM
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Probably not, unless you're saying "like" in a very broad sense. But there are definitely other possibilities that can be approached to prove that animated works can be taken seriously instead, something more original, which is probably the route that should be focused on.
Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Mar 21st 2021 at 5:34:17 AM
My musician pageIn considering your "Taco Bell Effect," figure in the countless independent taco trucks and small restaurants that do produce authentic Mexican-style tacos, and much more creative American variations then what you'd likely get at Taco Bell.
But that goes a little to what I was saying about the "otherness" of anime. There are loads of little touches and idiosyncrasies present in something like Grappler Baki that mark it as Japanese anime that wouldn't be present in an American production, even if the American production had exactly the same narrative goals. I'd say that, absolutely yes, American animators can produce work of equal dramatic heft and ambition as Japanese animators, but it won't be Anime, even if it looks something like Anime. It'll be the "Taco Truck effect" rather than the "Taco Bell Effect."
As for what kind of reception it'll get, I expect that'll take time and exposure. But again, it's possible for something to be a big success on streaming and still be pretty niche, so I don't know how long it'll take the public at large's perceptions to change.
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The increased democratization of media has also led to the increased segmentation if that makes sense. No longer are people choosing between five channels with everything trying to appeal to at least half the household. So now you have shows being more popular in smaller chunks, just because more people can be laser targeted. You have more choice, and that IS a good thing. And because those choices are increasingly normalized, it will eventually sink in that you can do animation outside of fat dad sitcoms or kids shows.
Eventually.
Bumping this thread, partly because my attempt to get "Taco Bell Effect" launched as a trope failed, and partly because I have a follow-up question. That question is this:
Anime, as I previously mentioned, are often single-season works, and are usually identified by the season in which they aired (for example, we might speak of "the Fall 2020 anime season" or "the Spring 2021" anime season"). This tradition of 12-Episode Anime is likely part of what encourages Japanese animation studios to pursue riskier projects, since the danger of not being renewed is not a factor. Within the context of the American animation industry as it exists today, what would it take to generate a shift towards such series?
I don't know, but some 12-episode series have started to appear, possibly due to the influence of Japanese animation. Hilda comes to mind, with 12-episodes seasons (just like many Japanese seasons it might have stopped at season one if unsuccessful and would therefore be a 12-episode series).
Making shorter series happens as a strategy of reducing risks. Which may indeed mitigate the risks that are taken when you go out of standards.
It'd take production companies being open to the idea of animation as primarily an entertainment vehicle, rather than primarily a means of selling merchandise. Most animators like job security though, and even if they come up with something that's originally intended for a single season, they'll write it in such a was as to allow for continuing things if possible (take Legend of Korra for instance). Still, I think Over the Garden Wall was very successful, and it was just a limited series.
There are lots of different models in the US for how many episodes a show would get. The Disney Afternoon shows ran to 65 episodes total (fans sometimes break those down into seasons, but that's not how the producers thought of them), though there were standouts that got considerably more than that (He-Man and Thundercats for instance). A Saturday morning show would generally get about 13 shows a season.
True, but most anime— except for ones that are massive franchises or are based on manga that are, themselves, long-runners— are designed from the outset to only get one season. Often, the outcome of this is a Gecko Ending, if the source material in question isn't finished. American animation studios don't do this. American animated TV series are intended by default to last as long as possible, which discourages writers and producers from using them to tell an ongoing story with a pre-determined end point. From the perspective of most major American TV networks, a show that completes its storyline in the course of a single season is a liability rather than an asset. In Japan, it's the norm.
American animation television do have their own capping point equivalent with the 65-Episode Cartoon, which was mainly geared towards 3-month worth of syndication. This is a carry over from live-action shows that need 100 episodes.
And even then, that format isn't as ubiquitous as it once was in the 80s. Showrunners for Kid Cosmic and Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts have communicate
on the flexibility of planning out
a total of three seasons ahead of time. Gravity Falls, likewise, did it with two, and it was one of Disney XD's highest rated shows
that could've been milked further, but wasn't.
Even the 12-Episode Anime page shows that it's not a hard industry standard, with series getting more episodes or cut down to that length than originally planned. If anything, some Japanese products are treating that format the same "safe" way Western productions treat a 13 episode seasonal.
Edited by XMenMutant22 on Mar 29th 2021 at 12:33:36 PM
Anime do run on syndication as well, but sometimes they're not on the original channel or timeslot of their initial run.
Domestic Japanese channels like Animax, Anime Theater X, and Kids Station exist purely on that.
That, or having the lucrative market of making 3-episode DV Ds to rent or buy within a month.
Remember that Japanese animation is utilized just as much as a business opportunity as its Western counterpart (passion project or otherwise). Generally, timeslots (new or reruns) are negotiated between the anime's production committee and the TV broadcaster, and the committee pays for the opportunity.
So to bring this conversation full circle, I think it's pretty obvious that cultural differences also played a role in how animation developed in Japan vs. the US.
This essay
talks about how how many popular anime (specifically it mentions Naruto and Bleach) are informed by Confucian philosophy, with their emphasis on striving to become a master at one's chosen skill, the importance of being part of a group, and loyalty to one's superiors. Such themes are, naturally, absent in American animation, and it goes back to the kind of stories Western culture gravitates towards. Consider, too, the fact that so many traits of the Stock Shōnen Hero are based on things considered desirable in Japanese society
.
This goes back to my old argument about the Taco Bell Effect. Yes, works of Western animation are able to copy the tropes and motifs found in anime, and some do. But what they can't copy is the underlying culture behind it.
Pardon the double post, but I stumbled upon two upcoming reboot projects from Trilogy Animation Group
- the animation production company owned by TBN that currently produces The VeggieTales Show.
One of them is an (all-animated?
) version of Jay Jay the Jet Plane, while the
other
is Tutenstein.
The original shows are currently available on TBN's streaming service Yippee, so I guess this development isn't too surprising, but I don't really associate Tutenstein with anything of TBN's previous content on a surface level.
Edited by XMenMutant22 on Mar 30th 2021 at 2:16:59 PM
Well, it certainly doesn't have the Uncanny Valley problems of the original, I'll give it that. As for Tutenstein. . . why would they be interested in that? Aren't they dedicated to producing works with Christian themes? What would they want with a series about Ancient Egyptian mythology?
That is the main reason why I was initially confused at Tutenstein's association at all.
My best guess has to do with TBN acquiring some kind of ownership of the brand from PorchLight Entertainment, which did some Christian-associated projects in the past like Jay Jay the Jet Plane and Adventures from the Book of Virtues.
Though funny enough, PorchLight Entertainment also co-produced The Secret Saturdays (another Jay Stephens-led show like Tut), which is pretty divorced from obvious Christian themes.
It also turns out that Tutenstein is one of the many cartoons to have a dedicated YouTube channel for free official episode uploads by Yippee, so that's neat.
Edited by XMenMutant22 on Mar 30th 2021 at 2:32:52 PM
If you don't mind me going back to the earlier subject, I found this interesting statement on the page for Osamu Tezuka:
"Tezuka, who was and still is the most influential and popular mangaka in Japan virtually made the Gekigaka's themes suitable for the mainstream market. On the long term this prevented anime and manga from falling into the Animation Age Ghetto in Japan."
If this is the case, then it wasn't just because of cultural differences, though those certainly played a part. It was also because of the influence of one guy. Now obviously, as I mentioned before, the underlying culture that shaped Japanese animation can't be replicated outside of Japan. But is there any possibility that Western animation might one day have its own Tezuka figure— someone who encourage innovation and reaching new demographics, is highly charismatic, and is imitated enough to become an industry standard?
Edited by ElSquibbonator on Mar 31st 2021 at 1:09:58 PM
If an individual can achieve a significant-enough degree of popular and financial success doing that, sure. Appealing to an audience broad enough to achieve the kind of success that could effect that kind of change in industry practices is rare and difficult, though, especially now. The question, too, seems kinda circular; to overcome the Animation Age Ghetto, one needs to overcome the Animation Age Ghetto. Before the streaming age, I would have said you'd need a major network to air an animated drama/adventure series aimed at adults. With streaming, though, there's no reason for someone to watch anything they weren't inclined to watch in the first place, and much less chance of them stumbling across it. Possibly it could happen if such a series was picked up on one of the major streaming services, and seriously promoted. I mean, even the successful animated comedies aimed at adults are kinda niche, except for The Simpsons.
Did you know there was a time during Tezuka's life when he was considered a has-been in the anime and manga communities? He resuscitated his career with Blackjack, and went on to do a number of interesting works in the 80's, but his reputation in the last years of his life was nothing compared to what it's become after his death.
Maybe, but if it is a cultural thing, I do think we're starting to forge that change, what with shows like Netflix's recent offerings and movies like Into the Spiderverse.

Long, rambly version -
Compared to where animation was viewed as a medium in 1997-2001, we're certainly ahead of the curve, where any sort of animation is viewed as being for the children (which is probably why so many adult animation fans can get so defensive, it's baked into the proverbial cake at this point).
Yes, the cartoon spokesman just said cartoons were for people who wet their pants. Don't worry, the place he advertised, Rax, declared bankruptcy the same year he came out.
But think of where a lot of animation was 15-20 years ago. It was either in the most niche of niche blocks, or edited to hell so it could sell merchandise. The few adult comedies were all some variety of "fat obnoxious dad gets into wacky situation."
I know some of the heads of those blocks (Adult Swim in particular) decry the rise of streaming as "giving you too much choice" but frankly, that's a load of bullshit. It's given rise to a more democratic outlet for entertainment where everyone has access to the same thing regardless of schedule. And as a result, it means people are seeing more animation, and are more willing to watch it. Now the old stereotypes are going to take time to break, but they can be broken with enough time and material contradicting them.
It's just not going to happen overnight, but people are seeing the alternatives. Case in point, I don't think the animation viewing public of early Adult Swim makes Baki the Grappler a huge success, now it's a bonafide hit for Netflix.
Edited by Beatman1 on Mar 21st 2021 at 4:52:53 AM