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Oh, got ninja'd, so here's hoping I get ninja'd again to avoid the double post.
x3 I know the practical differences between student teachers and gay people. But as I've pointed out time and times before and you have so far chose to ignore, gay relationships weren't always viewed as particularly different from a bunch of things we are now treating as completely different. The practical specifics of the relationships are irrelevant because morality works in a way where homosexuality was seen as wrong 50 years ago, comparable to pedophilia and incest, but not today despite the specifics not having changed one bit, which means that the specifics of various relationships aren't the key reason for why one is okay and the other wrong.
Homophobic people weren't considered bigots 50 years ago. They were seen as people with a stance on a debatable matter. at some point the stance they didn't supported became the norm and those people became bigots.
If you can't acknowledge moral values changes over time or don't wanna take distance from today's current moral system, there's nothing to do indeed.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 9:56:44 AM
The reason why gay relationships were viewed as bad is because gay people were, unjustifiably and as a whole, viewed as dangerous and subhuman and predatory. All gay people. Adults with other adults making mature, consenting, informed decisions about themselves and their lives.
Now, I have never said that all teachers are bad or that way, and many, many age imbalance student teacher relationships result in manipulation, abuse and trauma. Never did I say any of the parties involved were inferior inherently or that they’re a monolith, which is what homophobia says about gay people.
I’m sorry, but 15 year olds are not mature enough to make important, far reaching decisions about life and often lean on authority figures to help them out. Teenagers can’t consent to relationships with adults because they dont have enough experience to stand on their own. Adults have a responsibility to act like responsible adults and distance themselves from vulnerable kids. And like brought up before, abuse often happens subconsciously.
“Values changing” is a reality skeevy way people try to justify treating kids like adults in situations like these.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 1:59:37 AM
that's a very debatable point to make. I'm pretty sure that back then opponents to homosexuality were throwing in raping kids in the same lot too, or being predatory to insecure people, in order to paint some of them as "victims" that needed to be "cured" to look good. You know, just like how people nowadays use "sexually identifying as a tyronecopter" to discredit entire groups of people who just have much more belivable gender issues and paint them as dumbfucks who need to grow up.
No offense intended for the next paragraph, but at some point, if you hold the belief that most student-teacher relationship ends poorly because of resulting abuse, and that this is ground to forbid it, you are implying that most teachers that would get into those relationships are abusers. So you are being monolithic right now, with admitting to the occasionnal exception to look good. I'm pretty sure this is bigot 101 too. And painting a grpup of people as abusers is also a good way to describes "inferiors".
We're going back to 15 years old and again, why are we focusing specifically on 15 years old cases ? because you can be 20 and be in one of those relationships. Specifically 15 was relevant when we were talking about videogames, which is the most represented demographic, for Wish Fullfilment purposes, but that's an awful reduction of the real world matter that we are discussing right now.
Yes, values changes is not supposed to be an endorsment of anything. It's supposed to be a reminder that morality isn't absolute, and that many of the things we hold as unquestionnable were questionned at some point. And it's frightening. Because it means maybe one day pedophelia will be accepted. But that doesn't change the nature of morality.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 10:15:20 AM
I really don’t think we’re getting anywhere if we can’t get past this “homophobia is the same as not liking teacher student relationships” kick. Because I have tried again and again. To explain the very obvious differences. Again.
There is nothing similar about grown ass adults in relationships being discriminated against by asshats who couldn’t get past their own ignorance and people being wary and squicked out by vulnerable ass kids and young people being preyed upon by older people. And again, abuse can be subconscious. When you’re in a relationship with someone who is your social inferior, abuse will happen, because they’re leaning on your every word and hesitant to disobey because again, power dynamics. When you look up to someone and unambiguously follow their lead, issues will happen. Not in every case, but then you might as well never talk about any isssue because there are cases where it doesnt happen.
Again. You’re ignoring the differences completely. I mentioned teens because that is what we’re taking about. We’re not taking about 20 year olds, and this conversation didn’t start with 20 year olds or college age people. It’s a difference, again, of adults and kids not being the same. Even then, it’s still an issue because of the teacher authoritative dynamic, but I digress.
You trying tooth and nail to argue against these relationships being seen as problematic and comparing them to bigotry is honestly how normalization of ephebophilia works in action and is more likely to see people excusing the abuse that happens.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 2:25:39 AM
And yeah I agree that it could apply to older people depending on individual maturity, but the flipside is that some people at 15 are mature enough to know what they do. Not impossible, but not really relevant to the general matter at hand.
Well, a lot of laws would already consider 15-year-olds with adults to be pedophilia, so we're already more or less into that territory. Anyway, point is that this isn't just a case for being at or around 15. The power dynamic swing applied to someone immature is still problematic with ages in either surrounding direction.
And yeah, maybe there are some rare cases where the younger person does have that maturity, but I'm going to go ahead and guess that those are at the extreme edge of the population. Close scrutiny should be in play and said edge cases should have to survive passing that scrutiny to continue.
Edited by KuroiTsubasaTenshi on Mar 15th 2019 at 3:21:50 AM
Yes, you've tried to explain the differences between the two. And i've tried to explain to you that the differences don't actually matter as much as you would like to think. But then you've refused to respond to my arguments and keep repeating that i "don't get" the difference.
"When you look up to someone and unambiguously follow their lead, issues will happen. Not in every case, but then you might as well never talk about any isssue because there are cases where it doesnt happen."
that's... actually a very dumb thing to say ?
Precisely because there are cases where things go right, we should talk about those situations to identify the important differences and help people make the difference between a good and a bad relationship ? Like, learning the red flags for a relationship ? No
"We're talking about teens, not 20-years old". We are talking about teacher-students relation and last I checked it is made of both of those topics. 18 years old if you like it more. If you want to stay in the very narrow part of the topic that correspond to you opinion, it's not my problem.
You know what you said at the beginning about trying to see outside of you own perspective ? Yeah, try it more often rather than just restating over and over things you hold as evidences when the other person would actually like to challenge that idea.
Also, I invite you to reread my posts if you believe I say those relationships are utterly unproblematic, because I acknowledge several times that there is a legitimate issue to discuss.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 10:33:34 AM
I have literally explained the fallacy in your comparison numerous times and how what you’re saying is literally not even in the same league with the issue. I say you don’t get it because it’s either that or you’re deliberately ignoring it.
Edit: Like, you’ve literally spent this entire time reaching for non-comparisons and misrepresenting and ignoring what I’ve been saying (never said that all members of a group were abusers btw, but I guess you didn’t notice that) to try and justify and diminish what you personally don’t have an issue with. “If u dun like imbalanced relationships ur a bigot!!1” is one of the silliest things I’ve heard and literally misused what a bigot is.
There’s not much else I can do or say if you refuse to acknowledge what I’m writing or choose to use words to mean shit that they don’t mean.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 2:45:25 AM
You know I could say the exact same thing to you, right ?
I've explained why your reasoning doesn't work and you keep coming back to it.
I've acknowledged your points, which is why my posts and spent explaining why I disagree with them rather than stating over and over the same things on the basis that they are supposedly obvious.
Okay, fine. I'm letting you win. props to you for making such convincing arguments.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 10:35:51 AM
What the fuck, guys?
Finally got Lloyd and Llewelyn, but more importantly, precious precious dragon child acquired. The Deeprealms suck. BUT HE'S SO CUTE THOUGH. Nope, must resist... no excuse for... MY BABY WAS ALREADY LEVEL 20 SO I GOT HIM HIS VERY OWN MASTER SEAL! Arggh...
...I am actually kinda now scarred of whenever Three Houses comes out.
...May as well try to move onto to something else.
Edited by dood9780 on Mar 15th 2019 at 3:15:29 AM
Man, if that prompted all those pages of back-and-fourth, I pray 3H is sensible enough not to make it worse.
In my experience, people always find things to argue about. It's just a part of life. Regardless of what sort of floodgates 3 Houses opens, I'll likely just enjoy the game myself and not pay any mind to the internet being on fire for various reasons.
Edited by Konkfan7 on Mar 15th 2019 at 6:25:23 AM
Let this illustrate the futility and pointlessness of internet arguments.
Internet debates arent even pointless. Internet debates where one side is more interested in ignoring and strawmanning the other and/or misrepresenting their points or changing the definitions of words are, on the other hand. I kinda hate the whole “never debate a thing ever” and “criticism automatically bad” culture a lot because screw discourse and discussion around stuff I guess?
We’ve had plenty of interesting discussions about various things.
Then again, strawmanning gonna strawman no matter what at the end of the day and there’s not a whole lot that can be done about it, so swings and roundabouts I guess.
going back to the debate by indirectly calling out the other poster with ad hominem is also not the smartest thing to do to keep the discussion productive.
Except there was literally never any ad hominem in that post?
When did I insult you? Never. I made an observation on what happened and debate culture in general. You took offense to it.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 3:39:00 AM
Unless you were speaking about yourself, in which case I apologize for my mistake, you just called me a strawman. I don't see how that's not an ad hominem.
I didn’t call anyone a strawman. I was talking about the argument style.
Edit: I apologize if what I said came off as an attack though, it honestly wasn’t my intention. I could have worded better.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 3:41:52 AM
Fair enough, but bringing back the debate in that manner so soon after it's over is still not the smart thing to keep the discussion productive.
edit : okay, nevermind that.
I'd like to keep the discussion open by agreeing that debate is fine most of the time, we were able to reasonably disagree by the past several times so it's definitely possible, buuuut that discussion also happened recently and there's not much to say again about it.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 11:42:43 AM
That’s fair. I just meant to expound on my defense of debate but I could have used other examples.
Should I call the mods to intervene?
EDIT: Never mind, I thought you guys were arguing again.
Edited by MJTrooper on Mar 15th 2019 at 4:44:01 AM
The argument seems over anyway, I don't think that'd be necessary.
And it will stay over.
I thumped the most pointless post. I'm very willing to thump more.
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