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I said this way earlier, but there doesn't seem to be any age difference at all between Byleth and their students, imo. The trailer even implies that they're being made a teacher for contrived "chosen one" reasons rather than because they're older.
Of course there can still be power dynamics without an age difference, but it just bugs me when people just assume they're older despite how they're presented.
I don't get the impression that they're older either, considering that their dad was supposed to be given the position before they got it.
"It ain't the years, kid. It's the mileage."
-trips on the roadside curb-
x5 Huh, intersting. So when someone gets deeply hurt by their love life falling apart because one of the two people is a closeted gay, it's totally her being a bigot for petty reasons. She didn't legitimately suffered in the relationship and she's totally the one at fault. Not even society's fault for not legalizing homosexuality sooner, no, just her fault. being bigoted. Because of course she was bigoted before the marriage, not as a result of her experience.
When someone is against student teacher relationships and feel storngly about the matter because they personnaly know relationships that went wrong, not even the slightest bit bigoted, it's because they want to protect people, but when someone who suffered because of gay relationships, she's not trying to protect anyone, she's just being bigoted.
I'm sorry but that's not a really convincing argument to me.
Homosexuality being accepted wasn't always the norm. there was a time where people would also lump it with incest like we are doing just now with sutdent teachers and pointing out to all the bad cases of relationships (gee, i dunno, maybe because nobody was willing to listen to those people without judging them they couldn't get serious advice to make better life choices ?) as evidence of it.
Treating the two like completely separate things and saying one is straight up bigotry while the other is justified concern sounds like Moral Myopia to me.
It's also interesting how we only talk about 15 years old people. People have teachers well up into their twenties, and we only talk about the cases of people that literally just hit age of consent ? That's a fairly convenient definition of the thing.
I get why we're talking about specifically 15 years old right now in this thread. because that's what we see in videogames. But that's just an argument that the representation of those relationships is skewed in videogames. Not an argument about those relationships in real life.
Oh god Now I'm playing apologist for that imbecile of a grandmother. Look what you made me do.
Lastly, "student teacher romance is gross" and a culture saying it's fine somehow not being gross, while a believable argument to make, you'll forgive me for getting offended that you took the shortcut, because that's what most people do. It also means that cultures that have racist elements in it aren't gross because of it. I dunno if that's what you want to say, but I don't have an obvious counterpoint to that.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 8:51:33 PM
...You realize youíre conflating someone not liking imbalanced relationships that might traumatize you can people with someone who is homophobic right?
They...arenít really at all in the save neighborhood. Being a bigot is petty no matter what ďreasonĒ you have for it, because you choose to hate an entire group of people who have nothing to do with you because you are upset at one person.
Not liking imbalanced relationships and wanting to protect people has absolutely no correlation to someone being an asshat.
I'm interested in why Nowi got a big backlash but Nyx didn't; they're both clear "legal jailbait" characters.
For what it's worth, the only reason a gay man would even want to "trick" a woman into marriage is because of social pressure from bigots forcing them to stay closeted. So the solution to this grandmother's problem would in fact be to become more accepting of gay people.
Nowi acts like a child, looks like a child, and has an outfit with prominent underboob.
Nyx is said to not age normally, but honestly her character design isn't intensely different from most of the other characters.
Edited by ShirowShirow on Mar 15th 2019 at 3:56:33 PM
I assume because Nyx actually acted her age while Nowi still acted like a child.
Edited by Resileafs on Mar 15th 2019 at 3:56:40 PM
If I had to guess about Nowi and Nyx,
Nowi very clearly acts like a child and has childlike mannerisms.
Nyx used to be an adult and speaks and acts like one.
Not excusing either costume or them being marriageable by the way, I find it equally bad personally, especially because both ďsheís really 5000 guys itís okĒ and ďsheís wise beyond her years and is just an adult in a childís bodyĒ has been equally abused by apologists for that sort of thing.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 12:57:51 PM
So there's plenty of debate on the morality of student/teacher romances (I'm on the side that they should be tread on very carefully), but how about military commanders with their soldiers? Lilina is close enough of an equal to Roy that I don't think anyone has an issue with that, but Shanna is a hired merc that is supposed to follow his orders. Not a perfect comparison of course, but the power dynamics are there.
Fire Emblem tends to be excused for that because the goal of most players is to not have a single death in their entire playthrough, so you rarely get a situation where a commander shows favoritism to their loved one on the battlefield.
You just keep putting the two same concepts under different words to make them feel more different.
"youíre conflating someone not liking imbalanced relationships that might traumatize you can people with someone not liking gay relationships that might traumatize you".
Weird, I suddenly don't find the conflation that big. The reasons for why it might traumatize you differs, but in both case you're concerned about the well being of someone that might be in a potentially traumatizing relationship.
Again, I'm specifically talking about this one case that has actual correlation to the subject at hand. Please don't dimiss my point by generalizing about all homobphobic people that may hate gay people for various other reasons that are, indeed, unrelated to the current matter.
"Not liking imbalanced relationships and wanting to protect people has absolutely no correlation to someone Not liking gay relationships and wanting to protect people."
But there is, though. She's an asshat that want to protect other people from a perceived danger too. we call her a bigot because she' s wrong and she comes off as an asshole as a result. But it's rooted in the same thought process. The difference is the validity of their cases. Which is not an objective, timeless thing.
Again, yes, that's right, students are not safe in sutdent-teachers relationship. But maybe, just maybe, if they could talk about it without being judged for it, maybe they'd find support that would help them make informed choices ? Instead of having to rely on themselves only because they're afraid of being judged.
If student-teacher romance was viewed as morally okay but you still had those friends who had bad experiences with it and as a result was against, out of concerns for people, you'd be the bigot too. The key difference here is that gay people are morally okay but not student-teacher. But that wasn't always the case. And why gay relationships were okay didn't seemed that obvious either back in the day.
Being against sutedent teacher relationships on moral grounds I don't have a problem with. I'm saying that being against partly because of personnal experiences going wrong is how you get bigots when the other reasons stop existing.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 9:08:20 AM
So interesting fact, Kaga had indicated in the past that the characters who disappeared in their endings like Abel and Est would've appeared in a planned ultimate Archanea Fire Emblem game.
Guess that explains all those "they disappeared endings."
Bigotry doesnít mean what you think it means if you think someone not liking imbalanced relationships is a bigot.
This argument is going in circles but if you think someone being wary and skeeved out by possible emotional and sexual abuse of a young person by an older person and someone being homophobic because they married a gay person they didnít know was gay is in the same category, then thatís a comparison I am fundamentally averse to.
The homophobic person chooses to hate people for no good reasons. They got hurt by not getting what they expected or being hurt by another adult who happened to be gay, so all gay people are bad to them. Thatís shitty.
The person not liking imbalanced relationships objects to the emotional and sexual abuse, manipulation and trauma caused to an innocent person by an older person. Iím not saying it canít work out or that it never works out, but itís a dangerous thing because young people are preyed upon every day by older people who know they can take advantage of them.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 1:08:54 AM
...I am really disappointed that such idea never came to be.
Edited by dood9780 on Mar 15th 2019 at 1:09:46 AM
"Being wary and skeeved out" by personnal experiences is one of the main roots for bigotry. If you can't see that, it's not my problem.
The person against student-teacher relationships chooses to hate those for no good reasons. They got hurt by not getting what they expected or being hurt by another adult who happened to be their teacher, so all teacher-student relationships are bad to them. Thatís shitty.
Here, have your own words back at you with the other theme. Yes, I changed the word from "people" to "relationships", but gay people were/are seen as problematics because of said relationships.
You can be against student teacher relationships for good reasons ! I'm not arguing against that ! Again, I get that the amount of abuse and the inherent dynamic is a real issue that can cause problems down the road.
What I'm telling you, however, is shove the personnal experience bias elsewhere, because otherwise that's how you end up a shitty, bigoted person when you refuse to let go of that bias eveh after the rest of your reasons are no longer valid.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 9:20:52 AM
Except that wasnít even the crux of my argument.
I have many times mentioned the fact that imbalanced relationships invite manipulation, coercion, trickery, and other abuses of the younger party due to the lack of life experience and emotional maturity of the young person involved compared to the other, especially when it comes to authority figures, not some kind of pure bias about personal experience, which is what your homophobic grandmother story is in a nutshell.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 1:20:57 AM
And I did respond to those points in manners unrelated to that case, Only bringing up the grandma when you said "I know people who got hurt so I'm really wary" because that's the part where it was relevant. It was meant to be an off-hand "this argument really has no place in the debate", not a response to the crux of your argument.
It was two three lines paragraphs in a four paragrpahs post, initially, in case you forgot.
We're no longer arguing about those other points, because you focused on that one thing, when it was supposed to be a response to one specific point you make and not the whole case you were making. I've made counterpoints to the main crux of your arguments, and I'd be glad to have a counter to those so we can argue properly because arguing in circles is indeed not fun.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 9:27:34 AM
Regardless, my point is that they arenít the same and the comparison is a bad one. You are using bigotry wrong, because bigots are people who see some entire group as inherently inferior using petty ďreasons,Ē most of them uninformed and ignorant kneejerk bias, not people who donít like skeevy people preying on emotionally developing people.
I donít think weíre getting anywhere with this though because Iím not sure how else I can explain the crucial difference and why the comparison is inherently flawed.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 1:32:21 AM
So, we're not going back the part of the debate that tried to be constructive ? Fine.
Indulge me for a minute. Let's say we're in a world where sutdent teachers relationships are morally approved. Sure, there's all the issues that exists now, and some people suffered because of it, but society as a whole decided that it wasn't worth trhowing the baby with the bath water.
If someone is still against those relationships because they were personally hurt by one of those or know people who did, how are they not a bigot ?
Actually, screw the "because they were personally hurt". Just, "if someoneis still against those relationships", how are they not a bigot ?. I mean, Who bothers asking an homophobe their reasons to be one before calling it a biggot anyway ? And what possible reasons could they bring up that would not qualify them as bigots ?
you emphasizes bigots being prejudiced against " a whole group", but I don't see why peoples in student teachers relationship can't consitute "a whole group" of people ?
Calling bigoted peoples a bunch of idiots being bigoted because of petty reasons and kneejerk bias is oversimplyfying the problem to not have to deal with the possiblity that maybe people just got screwed by life for reasons out of their control. It doesn't excuse them, but it explains them. Everything is petty if you take enough distance.
I get your supposed "crucial difference", I'm pointing out to you that your difference isn't that crucial or that immuable as you like to think.
Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 9:42:34 AM
I think you're right in that Roy x Shanna might be something that should be approached with wariness. Come to think of it, as a long-standing mercenary nation, i would think Ilia would teach its soldiers to be extra careful of the honeyed words of certain types of employers, lest they end up with an undesirable contract (or situation resulting thereof).
...You know very well the difference between groups like gay people and teachers and students. You know the difference between bigotry against a diverse group of people who happen to have a specific orientation in common and not liking/being wary of predatory behavior toward minors. Do I really need to explain that? Because if you think that itís the same, thereís nothing more I can say.
Weíre not jumping though hoops in a world of what-ifs to try and diminish the issue.
Iím sorry, but I canít get behind saying a honophobic person is the same as someone not liking teacher-student relationships. Thatís just...insane, to say the least.
I have tried to explain the obvious differences but I donít think youíre interested in seeing it.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 1:46:10 AM
wait, wouldn't younger be straight up pedophelia ?
And yeah I agree that it could apply to older people depending on individual maturity, but the flipside is that some people at 15 are mature enough to know what they do. Not impossible, but not really relevant to the general matter at hand.
I know it would've been great! I imagine Gaiden characters like Luthier would've shown up as well.
Its fitting for Est to go to another continent after visiting Valentia, I imagine the poor girl was probably kidnapped again!
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