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RangerJackWalker Since: Sep, 2010
#76751: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:32:05 AM

[up][up][up]Yes, a consenting relationship is equal to slavery. Of course.

Just because you see it as an issue doesn't mean it is. Like I said, different cultures have different perspectives. This would not be viewed as a problem where I come from. Like, at all. Your moral standards aren't the 'correct' moral standards.

Edited by RangerJackWalker on Mar 16th 2019 at 12:03:25 AM

ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#76752: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:36:46 AM

I’m not opposed to FE with controversial elements, but it’s a matter of how it’s handled. I love Genealogy despite incest making up a cornerstone of its plot, because, crucially, it portrayed that incest as awful and causing no end of trouble using complex characters rather than the groan worthy sibling incest fetish wink wink nudge nudge that was Camilla.

Using taboo material in works is gong to happen if they want to represent the complexity of people and society, but how they portray it is key.

Peddle it for cheap fanservice and wish fulfillment without even the slightest criticism, and we have an issue. Use it if you must to make a point, develop plot or characters, but acknowledge and criticize or even deconstruct its more screwed up side and you have something not in automatic bad taste. But people want to have their cake and eat it too.

Edit: [up] Dude. You realize you’re using the same arguments bigoted people use to explain why what they don’t care about isn’t bad right? “Oh, my culture sees this sexism as fine, so it’s not an issue. My culture sees this racism as fine, so it’s not an issue.” That’s what you sound like right now tbh.

There’s tons of evidence of the psychological trauma and damage that can be caused to young people in a relationship with a manipulative older person. Maybe do some research. I only need to point to the many instances of sexual abuse of students by teachers “in a relationship” with them. Maybe step outside of your perspective for once.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 11:41:32 AM

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
dood9780 Half-Demon Dude In A Bizarre World from The Vortex World Since: Mar, 2014
Half-Demon Dude In A Bizarre World
#76753: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:46:13 AM

Ummm... This is starting to get a bit ugly...

"Death's vastness holds no peace. I come at the end of the long road—neither human, nor devil... All bends to my will." -Demifiend.
RangerJackWalker Since: Sep, 2010
#76754: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:46:49 AM

Again, a consenting relationship is completely equal to racism, right? Maybe you should get some perspective.

ShirowShirow Down with the Privileged🪓 from Land of maple syrup Since: Nov, 2009
Down with the Privileged🪓
ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#76756: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:50:34 AM

[up] x2 At this point you’re being deliberately obtuse because people are daring to criticize something you like. Cool strawman. You can stick your fingers in your ears all you want though, the energy I’m expending here isn’t worth it.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 11:55:27 AM

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
RangerJackWalker Since: Sep, 2010
#76757: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:50:56 AM

I just get worked up when westerners try to use the slippery slope argument to justify where their culture's moral standards are the 'correct' standards and why everyone else should just fall in line.

ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#76758: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:51:42 AM

[up] No, more like you refuse to acknowledge other peoples’ opinions because they don’t line up with your own and strawman their arguments.

Lol, “westerners.” Pretty sure you’re one of us.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 11:53:52 AM

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014
#76759: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:53:10 AM

If you don't have a problem with Cecilia's consensual teacher/student relationship with Roy, how about Corrin/Gunter or Corrin/any sibling? Those all involve consenting adults, but it's very easy to see why people regard them as super problematic.

KuroiTsubasaTenshi Streamer from Twitch Since: May, 2011
Streamer
#76760: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:53:39 AM

Consenting is technically fine, so long as it is actually consenting (and, since nothing is absolute, there are going to be exceptions where it does work out and is healthy). The problem there is judging the distinction. The example used by RJW also puts the student at post-college age, which, in theory, should be where said student is more likely to be able to make an unbiased judgment (though not guaranteed).

However, stuff like the whole altar boy scandal has proven that there does need to be some level of scrutiny, particularly with younger charges. This is part of why I tend to be uncomfortable with and needle Roy x Cecilia because Roy is high-school age and getting it on with his ex-teacher. The other part is that that C support makes it very clear that Roy still feels obligatory biases toward Cecilia's authority and a single sentence in the A support can't ward away the lingering effects of that.

FE:3H Maddening Banes Only 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Valkyria Chronicles 4 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi
RangerJackWalker Since: Sep, 2010
#76761: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:53:45 AM

I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. You're free to feel that something is wrong. But that's all that is. I don't have to put up with white people saying my culture is gross because it doesn't fit their standards and then using the slippery slope argument to justify it. Not necessarily accusing you of doing this but I've seen behaviour far too many times.

[up]Even with Roy and Cecilia, we're not given any time frame. It's just something that happened after the game ends. It could be immediately after or it could be years after.

Edited by RangerJackWalker on Mar 16th 2019 at 12:26:25 AM

ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#76762: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:56:21 AM

People criticizing one aspect of a work doesnt equate to calling any culture gross though...

It’s not even one culture that has this issue...

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#76763: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:56:43 AM

"Step outside your perspective" is kind of a complicated thing to say when you are advocating for your own perspective againt the one of the person you are arguing against at the time you say that.

As for the whole "relationship with an abusive figure of power is bad", yeah, sure. Not contesting that. But the problematic part isn't "figure of power", it 'abusive person". If you enter a realtionship with an abusive person, you are going to have a bad time, simple as that.

There's a lot of documentation on how student teachers relationships ended badly, fair enough. Now Unless I woke up in the wrong dimension, there's also documented cases of those kind of relationships going perfectly well ? So what exactly are we doing with those people ? You can't depict that thing that happen in real life because there's documented cases of this going wrong ?

Because the only difference I see with regular relationships is that the percentage that end badly is higher. And I can accept that. I understand that this relationship gives an easy in to abusive people in that position. But then what is the acceptable percentage to depict this in a video game and for it to be okay ?

If the difference between okay and not okay is a percentage, I don't see the obvious moral high ground. Racism is bad period, not just bad sometimes. Same goes for Slavery. So that comparison strikes me as a bit of a strawman honestly.

Incest is bad period too, because while theorically incest that do not go wrong could exist, we have data on it that pretty much shows it doesn't, period. But I'm not under the impression it's the same thing for student-teacher.

[up]Uuuuuuuh, you outright called that gross literally a page ago though. I'm sorry but that's fairly disingenuous there.

Also, I got ninja'd five times but basically what Kuroi said.

Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 7:58:36 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
RangerJackWalker Since: Sep, 2010
#76764: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:59:00 AM

Like I said, people have behaved like I described when talking about this issue. Not a related topic but this exact topic.

IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014
#76765: Mar 15th 2019 at 11:59:38 AM

Student/teacher is bad for the exact same reasons incest is bad: power dynamics mean that abuse is basically a guarantee.

ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#76766: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:02:30 PM

It strikes me as a kneejerk to go “well no it’s not bad because people disagree with you” though, no matter what is being criticized. People have different experiences and different traumas, and it comes off as honestly really dickish to tell someone that their issue isn’t an issue if they’ve been personally hurt by it or seen loved ones hurt by it and seen it glorified or played as good in the media.

Not gonna get too personal, but I’ve seen terrible shit happen to impressionable young people who are involved in situations like that. And you can’t always recognize abuse because it comes in multiple forms, including emotional manipulation. Young people don’t have the life experience or emotional maturity necessary to approach a relationship with an adult on an equal footing, and unequal relationships are really dubious.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 12:03:27 PM

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
erazor0707 The Unknown Unknown from The Infinitude of Meh Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The Unknown Unknown
#76767: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:04:17 PM

There's also the fact a 15-year-old should stay away from anyone 20 or over that isn't a direct family member for a multitude of reasons. On general principle.

Edited by erazor0707 on Mar 15th 2019 at 12:06:02 PM

A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014
#76768: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:05:59 PM

That's kind of a lost cause at this point, though, since we've had teens with adults since Est/Abel.

ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#76769: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:08:41 PM

[up] Not trying to diminish your point, but there is the fact that they don’t actually end up together in the end, and Est marries another guy whose age we don’t know.

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
RangerJackWalker Since: Sep, 2010
#76770: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:10:50 PM

[up]Est doesn't marry anyone else. She simply leaves and is never seen again. Neither is Abel. Besides, their relationship fell apart due to war.

IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014
#76771: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:10:55 PM

[up][up]Uh, no. Est and Abel get married between 1 and 3, Est ends up leaving him, and Abel goes on a quest to find her. She never finds anyone else, and the fandom blames her 100% for not sticking with the 20 something she loved at age 15.

Edited by IniuriaTalis on Mar 15th 2019 at 3:11:13 PM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#76772: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:11:26 PM

[up]x6 I think that's quite the overgeneralization you are making there. There might be people saying racism is okay or slavery is okay, but there's evidence for the contrary that does not involve the slippery slope argument. The crux of the problem with student-relationship is one of those case where the big draw against it is the slippery slope argument. There's room to disagree with that argument without being the same kind of person who defends slavery, racism or genocide.

Sidenote, but my grandmother is still prejudiced against gay people 40 years after her marriage sunk because she married a closeted gay, and is a terrible person about half the time as a result. Every single word you just said could be used by her against gay people.

So personal experiences of "that thing went bad so I'm against it" can go get fucked as far as I'm concerned, no offense intended. "I've had bad experiences with that type of people/relationships" goes both ways.

Kuroi really nails it to me : the most succesfull relationships of that kind are those that involves a student who's already grown up enough to make an informed consent. High-schoolers is a complicated matter, but people in college (is it college the correct english term ? the thing you go at between 18 and 20-21 ? or is that the part where you're 16-18 ?) are over 20 and should realistically be able to decide whether or not the relationship is desirable by themselves.

Edited by Yumil on Mar 15th 2019 at 8:17:48 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
ShirowShirow Down with the Privileged🪓 from Land of maple syrup Since: Nov, 2009
Down with the Privileged🪓
#76773: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:16:27 PM

Wait, so Est does leave Abel? Good. The fucker won't stop showing up in my Blue Orb pulls in FEH. Hate that guy.

Bleye knows Sabers.
ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#76774: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:17:50 PM

[up] x2 There’s difference between bigots and abusers though.

“Young person-much older person relationships are bad because of the potential (and maybe even likely) abuse of the vulnerable young person” is hugely different than someone being homophobic for petty reasons. One is trying to protect a young person, the other is just being an intolerant asshole.

Plus we’re not talking about college age people. We’re taking about a 15-year-old, who most definitely does not have the mental and emotional maturity to enter an equal relationship with a 30 year old who was and is in a position of teacher authority over him.

Also: I said the teacher student romance was gross. Not the culture. Don’t misrepresent me please. That feels more disingenuous than anything tbh.

With Est, I could’ve sworn I read something about her marrring to someone else somewhere. Guess I was mistaken. Either way they dont end up together so it’s not quite the same.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 15th 2019 at 12:24:03 PM

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014
#76775: Mar 15th 2019 at 12:20:21 PM

Either way, depending on the ages involved Byleth/student might be less creepy than Roy/Cecilia. If the students are college age and Byleth is too, they don't get together until after the game, and they're only their teacher for a comparably short time the weird factor would be significantly minimized.


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