The thing that perplexes me most about King Garon is how he managed to stay on the throne despite how Obviously Evil he acts. Nohr must have a really serious case of Gullible Lemmings...
Umm... so, personally... this is the first time this has happened, so I'm a bit surprised. Only a centimetre away...I beg to differ. The cast is awful (with only a handful that I don't loathe) and the main villain is only marginally better than Grima who's the worst the series has to offer so being better than that tragedy is not notable.
The same problem Awakening and Fates. The game thinks that making characters wacky and goofy is a valid method of characterization. The supports all rely on forcing typical archetype gimmicks onto characters that don't fit them. Such as Cain being forced to take on the usual 'serious cavalier' characterization that modern cavalier duos have and he's now obsessed with training. Catria suddenly having this huge crush on Marth that forms the basis of all of her supports when in reality, the fact that she had a crush on Marth was a insignificant detail that wasn't even officially stated but was exaggerated by fans because in Mystery of the Emblem, Catria gains support points from Marth (hardly a notable factor since many support bonuses are one-way only and none of them amount to much). In reality, Catria's crush on Marth was non-existant until New Mystery and it was Palla's crush on Abel that was actually supported by in-game text. Or how Draug has gained an insane reputation of being some sort of Memetic Badass that reaches ridiculous extents (this characterization is pretty much repeated with Benny in Fates and it is just as awful with him which is a real shame because I like him as a unit). There's many more examples but the point is that New Mystery is absolutely shit at characterization and I vastly prefer the Archanea cast in both Shadow Dragon and original Mystery of the Emblem.
... Isn't such thing more 'common' to modern FE even before Shadow Dragon? Didn't the Elibe FE, Tellius FE, Sacred Stones having quite similar quirky characterization?
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One thing that perplexes me about the fandom is that it looks like they demand that every characters must have the same mindset with the player. Like, "Obviously Evil characters? Only idiots would hang around with them~!" Forgetting other possible factors that they might honor country loyalty above all, making it a case of My Country, Right or Wrong, and that has been what was taught to them since little, making it a little hard to magically switch mindsets.
Xander sums it up beautifully in the Nohr route, that to see everything in black and white is just wrong. Justice actually differs between each people (this is why justice-obsessed Arthur can hang around in Nohr next to Xander), and to call those with differing values of justice than yours to be stupid seems like... narrow minded.
edited 27th Jul '16 4:04:44 AM by ChrisX
No, it's pretty goddamned black and white. Xander cannot go on about how bout everything is black and white when the country he's supporting is slaughtering it's way through an innocent neighbour. And he's not even in on Corrin's actual plan. So as far he's concerned, all he's doing is supporting a tyrant. The other instances of My Country, Right or Wrong in the series acknowledge that they're wrong (since you know, that's the name of the trope). They don't try to justify their wrongs by saying "oh well, you see, not everything is black and white". Xander's words are bullshit. And the citizens of Hoshido being slaughtered would certainly call his words bullshit too. And i hope no one thinks they're being narrow-minded because thatc would be just stupid. He's not being 'deep'. He's merely justifying his inaction. Which would be fine if that's the intended direction with his character. An inherently good person caught in a bad situation trying to deflect blame or culpability would be interesting. But that's not the direction they're going with there.
edited 27th Jul '16 4:36:04 AM by RangerJackWalker
Your words just sounded hollow and demanding that everyone has the same morality values like you, like how family can be ditched to hell even after how long you have been with them. You mark others as tyrant, and sometimes, it's not wrong. But if that tyrant was your father? What, are you expecting to say "If you're a tyrant, then you're no longer my father!"... That actually is a pretty childish way to perceive things. What are you, self-proclaimed allies of justice? In that case, WHICH JUSTICE? Justice doesn't always take form in 'fight tyranny wherever you live'. It doesn't mean supporting them either, but there's also family loyalty to take account of.
You're the type of guy who would misuse the quote "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing" to force people to think like you, then label those who don't do things your way to be accessories of evil because they 'do nothing' in your eyes when they may be doing things their way. I don't like people like that a lot, they have a tendency to ruin the meaning of justice and use it just as a pretty word to move people as they please. And one of the things I hate is the misusage of the word 'justice'.
Bottom line, when you think someone is Obviously Evil, don't expect characters to think the same like you. If you can't get past that, it's okay... but consider our conversation finished
edited 27th Jul '16 4:56:51 AM by ChrisX
Apparently for that guy, and many many others, if the players see it, everyone should see it, and those who don't are automatically idiots. It's not just on FE. Pick any other story and you can find something similar.
Or how people like to think that, "This guy is stupid, if I was in his place, I would definitely not act that stupid."
I don't even know what to call this phenomenon as.
edited 27th Jul '16 6:06:27 AM by ChrisX
Also almost all of Garon's BWA HA HA I'M SO EBIL moments take place when he's alone (or talking to Iago), which we, as the audience, get to see, but the characters don't.
Except Elise, because she likes to drop the eaves.
Bewitching EyesTo say Benny being a Memetic Badass makes his characterization awful kinda...doesn't fly by me. I don't see why that would provoke such a strong opinion.
It may be humorous, but I don't see it as out of the realm of possibility.
Also just calling it awful or shitty doesn't explain anything.
edited 27th Jul '16 7:14:56 AM by IceAnt573
Okay RangerJack. not to be a dick, but do you like any modern video game series?
Because the stuff you're complaining about is common in every genre, not just Fire Emblem.
And no: Fates is not Black-and-White Morality, it's Grey-and-Gray Morality (not really well-handled, but that's incredibly common of Grey/Gray stories) with Black thrown in (Anankos, Garon and his flunkies).
@Chris: I personally call it "players are fucking stupid and can't understand that they see everything when the characters don't". Because that's usually how it can be summed up most of the time.
edited 27th Jul '16 7:27:38 AM by BlackSunNocturne
Xander being stuck in an unwinnable situation doesn't make says situation any less black and white. And no, I'm not using things the player knows but the characters don't against Xander. Don't try to pull that shit, is not gonna work. In fact, that line of logic only works against him. He doesn't have knowledge of Corrin's plan. If he did, then his little speech would have some meaning. But he doesn't know the plan. So his speech is stupid. At that point in the story, Xander is partially leading an invasion of a peaceful country while his soldiers slaughter innocent civilians. He doesn't know what Corrin knows. Yet there he is, trying to argue that the situation is not black and white. No, it's pretty goddamn black and white. The fact that Xander is inherently a good person doesn't make the situation any less black and white. I'm not expecting him to suddenly revolt. I'm not expecting his to suddenly kill Garon and stop the invasion. He is stuck in an unwinnable situation. But his awful speech just smells of him trying to deflect culpability away from him. If he had knowledge of Corrin's true intentions then his speech would not be completely full of shit.
edited 27th Jul '16 8:05:01 AM by RangerJackWalker
How does Fates have grey morality?
In what way, was Hoshido painted as anything other than Heaven and Nohr as Hell? Even in Conquest, the invasion happened solely FOR THE GLORY OF NOHR! None of the Conquest characters even bother questioning the war. Not to mention, the game pretty much saying "You should have chosen Hoshido lol"
Also the fact that Nohrian soldiers are never spared. Hoshdian solders are spared, people who rebelled against Nohr was spared, but never Nohrian ones. We don't even have a clear picture whether or not the Nohrian soldiers who fought with Camilla and Silas in Revelations survived
Meanwhile in Hoshido: No one is starving. Their racism is downplayed. Any "bad" Hoshidan are limited to supports (Subaki/Azura, Saizo/Hinoka) and even then, we never see them. And Nohr's supposed reason of resenting Hoshido, the fact that Hoshidians don't care about the outside world as long as they're happy, is never shown.
edited 27th Jul '16 8:36:52 AM by NoName999
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... Yeah, Chris was right. Our conversation is done.
The game was supposed to be Grey-and-Gray Morality, and IntelligentSystems said it would, but they completely failed to deliver on that point.
Also, yeah. Hoshido's totally heaven. Didn't know Heaven kidnapped people, has assassins trying to assassinate royalty, is full of violent racists and always has a Holier Than Thou stance on everything.
Also, yeah the invasion happened "FOR THE GLORY OF NOHR!", and the fact that Nohr has absolutely no agriculture because the land is shit didn't have aaaaaaaaaaaaaaany contributing factors (hint: It's even mentioned in Birthright that's why Nohr is aggressively conquering)
Edit: Their racism isn't downplayed at all. Or are you glossing over the fact that Takumi, Oboro and Saizo all exist?
edited 27th Jul '16 8:38:03 AM by BlackSunNocturne
... I think I could just explain further why his words are hollow and he's once again spouting how much his justice should have been followed and anyone who doesn't follow are idiots.
But it's not worth it, so let me just say this instead.
He can say all that, but I'll still consider Xander a good character, Fates and Awakening and New Mystery to be good games with characterizations I feel fine and good, and everything that poster said means jack shit to me. It's his loss for not being more open-minded.
I'm out.
edited 27th Jul '16 8:47:21 AM by ChrisX
Our conversation is done? Hardly surprising considering neither was able to provide a response other than the usual "the player sees stuff the characters don't" nonsense even though I specifically took care to only examine through what knowledge Xander has.
Also no, the war isn't happening for agriculture or Nohr's lack of resources. Never mind that this information is not provided in Conquest at all. None of the characters provide this as their motivation to fight, certainly not the royal family. They don't discuss the problems Nohr is facing.
There's no 'my justice' or 'your justice' nonsense here. There's the simple fact that Xander is trying to argue that not everything is black and white in literally the same chapter that has Nohr slaughtering civilians who talk negatively about the country that is invading and killing them. That's all the perspective that should be necessary for why Xander's speech is full of shit. I know IS was trying to go for a grey morality bit they've done a spectacularly bad job at it.
edited 27th Jul '16 8:56:53 AM by RangerJackWalker
I repeat: There's the simple fact that Xander is trying to argue that not everything is black and white in literally the same chapter that has Nohr slaughtering civilians who talk negatively about the country that is invading and killing them. That's all the perspective that should be necessary for why Xander's speech is full of shit.
There is absolutely nothing grey about that. It is as Black and White as it can get. Xander is a good person yes, but the situation is no less black and white.
Matters of my sense of justice should not even matter here.
edited 27th Jul '16 9:01:34 AM by RangerJackWalker
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Again, all of that is downplayed. Kidnapping Azura was retaliation and Mikoto treated her better than Garon did Corrin. The violent racists? If you mean chapter 9 of Conquest, once again, downplayed. It's never brought up that Azura was kidnapped yet again due to racism. No one calls out Hoshido on it.
Assassinating the royalty? If you mean Azura, once again, you can only find that in one support between her and Subaki? And once again, no one calls out the Hoshido on this. Meanwhile, we're suppose to feel for Oboro and hate Nohr because she lost her parents to assassins.
Silas mentioning one throw away line hardly constitutes it. And why isn't it the driving force in Conquest? Why does no one else mention this? You would think starvation would be a big damn deal to mention.
Also, Oboro: tragic backstory, not to mention she never really apologizes for it.
Saizo: Is a dick to everyone, is never called out on his bigotry, and only apologizes to Azura after she tells him how poorly Nohrians treated her. So all in all, his bigoted view is still enforced.
Takumi: LOL
edited 27th Jul '16 9:00:17 AM by NoName999
Honestly, I think it's honestly just Developer Cultural Posturing with the issues regarding Hoshido being super-duper good and Nohr being blatantly evil.
Because a Japanese-made game, with a Japan-expy country that's so impossibly good, and the European-expy country as a bunch of violent and evil conquerors?
IS, please at least try to hide it so it's not as blatant next time?
Edit: Oh hey, Fates is even on the Cultural Posturing page:
- Fire Emblem Fates: One of the few things that make the generally benevolent Hoshido grey is their tendency to characterize all citizens of Nohr as wicked monsters, when the truth is that it is really just Garon and his advisor Iago. This has the result of making the Hoshido characters look a tad racist during the Conquest route, as they insist that the player character must have been brainwashed as they continue to plead for peace between Nohr and Hoshido.
edited 27th Jul '16 9:09:32 AM by BlackSunNocturne
Chris: While I agree with a lot of your points, your arguments could do with less ad hominem. Sure, he's arguing confrontationally, but what you're doing makes yours a bit cringe-y to read.
Black: The thing about Hoshido that makes them Heaven in that case is that the game goes out of its way to justify pretty much all of that, barring some of Takumi's more ludicrous actions. Oboro's and Saizo's racism is downplayed because Corrin has to prove to them that she's not Super-Bad Nohrian Scum(™). That is, it's all on Corrin (and Silas, to a lesser extent), not the racists.
Re: Xander's dialogue in Conquest: my impression has always been that he's basically admitting that when the cards are down, and it comes out that he actually has little power, he's going to engage in favouratism to protect those closest to him (A.K.A. his family). It's arguably selfish, because favouratism. If not, it's still far less admirable to be protecting a close few than the lives of civilians. But given what Leo and Camilla said in previous chapters, I'd like to remind people of two things: Garon is willing to execute even his kids for disobedience and they work behind his back to salvage the situation when they can. Despite the weirdness with the overall story, Conquest shows that Xander is willing to engage in the same skullduggery and is likely aware of Garon's stance on disobedience. So is it better to get confrontational and die meaninglessly (let's not pretend for a second here that Iago and Garon wouldn't cover up the truth and spout come crap about how Xander died heroically fighting off a bunch of Hoshidans), or live and continue to work behind the scenes to mitigate the damage? The first means he knows he stuck to his principles, but does nothing; the second forces him to give up his principles in order to accomplish something. Which one is better? I doubt people could reach a consensus.
As for Benny, I haven't seen a ton of his supports, but I'd say that Corrin's with him gives the impression that the memetic badassness is an exaggerated result of him being stereotyped. He's larger and bulkier than most men. He's quiet and kinda odd. You know what happens with people like him in real life? People start whispering, spreading rumours. They're afraid, so they make shit up and then everyone continues to avoid him. That is what I see going on in that support.
FE: New Mystery Only Feet 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Umamusume Haru Arima 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshiI already acknowledge that Xander is stuck in an unwinnable situation and I'm not expecting him to suddenly revolt. But that doesn't make the situation any less black and white.
Also, the issue with Benny is that his supports are just full of the same gimmikcy nonsense. The gimmick is taken to ridiculous extents. It's just so unfunny.
That is literally exactly the situation described in most of his supports.
How is it a gimmick and not a character trait?
edited 27th Jul '16 9:27:10 AM by EpicBleye
"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
