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TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#126: Mar 5th 2010 at 2:30:21 PM

40mm of armor penetration it fires a APFSTDS (both DU or Standard version). Its a incredibly fast Muzzle velocity 1,450 meters per second, technical effective range is a whopping 1000 meters, maximum projectivle range is 2500 meters.

At that maximum "effective" range the drift was about 1 inch, that is some damn hot excellent weapon design. Its like man portable Abrams cannon. Smooth-bore with a discarding sabot.

I stand Corrected

It never reaches 80cm over direct line of site and can almost be considered a flat trajectory. The on target drift is probably pretty close to what I thought I read. its Armor Penetration of 40mm RHA grade armor is at 1000 meters. that is an impressive figure.

edited 5th Mar '10 2:40:44 PM by TuefelHundenIV

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Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#127: Mar 5th 2010 at 3:31:20 PM

I'd love to live trial that, sounds great on paper, but I'm skeptical.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#128: Mar 5th 2010 at 3:40:13 PM

Hell the weapons buffer and recoil design is like a large artillery piece. I bet it works as advertised. Anyone else know of any other odd or nifty weapons out there?

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Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#129: Mar 5th 2010 at 3:50:44 PM

This is the Neostead, a 12 gauge pump action shotgun manufactured in South Africa.

The cool feature of the Neostead is that it has dual above the barrel tube mags, with 6 rounds each. It has a special type of selective fire, in the fact that it can fire to alternate between the magazines, only fire the left/right mag until switched over, or to fire the second one when the first one is dry. This has awesome law enforcement applications because it means you could put rubber beanbag rounds in one mag, with lethal slugs or shells in the other.

This means in a riot you could fire on targets that required the non-lethal rounds, and then return fire with lethal rounds if you begin to take fire from a gunman in the crowd. It's been field tested by different military groups across the world but has never been adopted afaik, though it's a non-restricted firearm in Canada, the ATF still has it restricted from being imported into the States.

I can see why this didn't take with the police force though, in theory it's a perfect riot shotgun, but this is also counting on the officers armed with them to never make a mistake and accidentally fire the wrong tube at a civilian who was only trying to stun, not kill. It's a walking liability waiting to happen with how stressful riot situations are. I'd just as soon stick with a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 590.

edited 5th Mar '10 3:52:16 PM by Barkey

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#130: Mar 5th 2010 at 4:00:29 PM

I like the M-1014 Myself. accurate and functional.

I have seen that weapon before. South Africa makes some crazy but cool weapons.

edited 5th Mar '10 4:04:49 PM by TuefelHundenIV

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TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#132: Mar 5th 2010 at 4:37:11 PM

We all know the AA-12 is going to reign supreme as far as combat shotguns are concerned. You just can't beat a More Dakka scattergun in close quarters.

Personally for close quarters however, not much beats the rifle caliber carbine like an M4, G 36 C or FN SCAR. Especially if it is bullpup like the TAR-21.

That makes me wonder, how effective would TAR-21s be in an American GI's hands? I've heard it is a vastly superior weapon in reliability than anything in Direct Impingement build (Famas, M16, M4, L85?). Does it work on a piston? Wikipedia gave me no answers in that regard.

edited 5th Mar '10 4:37:47 PM by MajorTom

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#133: Mar 5th 2010 at 4:52:04 PM

That might be a moot point soon. The Trials to replace the M-4 and possibly the M-16 series rifle are using piston style weapons like the H&K 416 damn thing is like the AK-47 for the U.S.

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#134: Mar 5th 2010 at 5:03:45 PM

Ironically enough, the US analogue for the AK-47 in terms of piston and reliability is the M1/M14 series of rifles that preceded the M16.

It makes it worth asking, what the fuck were the logistics folks thinking by buying into Stoner's crappy idea? Better yet, why couldn't Stoner himself just shrink or simplify the piston system in his AR series instead of removing it completely?

NotSoBadassLongcoat The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24 from People's Democratic Republic of Badassia (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Puppy love
The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24
#135: Mar 5th 2010 at 5:24:31 PM

The VBR PDW, submachine gun looking like someone just "borrowed" it from 20 Minutes into the Future.

"what the complete, unabridged, 4k ultra HD fuck with bonus features" - Mark Von Lewis
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#136: Mar 5th 2010 at 6:10:13 PM

Nice Find Not-So-Badass Longcoat

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DrRockopolis Rock On from Barsoom Since: Sep, 2009
Rock On
#137: Mar 5th 2010 at 6:20:16 PM

Yeah, I like the AA-12, I wouldn't mind owning one.

  • Slightly more practically, I wouldn't mind a semi-automatic shotguns, possibly even box-fed. Although the line between that and an assault rifle is probably starting to blur.
    • Aren't there rifled slugs and such for better accuracy?
  • Saiga 12 sounds hilariously awesome, though I seem to remember hearing that there's problems with the shells not quite fitting properly.
  • I seem to remember one model of Mossberg came with a bayonet lug, which I thought was pretty funny.

On the crazier side, the VSK-94 seems kinda cool. Supposed to be very quiet.

What's your opinion on suppressors? I think they're nifty, and they'd be handy to have.

Also, I've been meaning to ask...how much difference does a pistol grip on a rifle make? Wasn't that on the assault weapons ban?

Now, sometime within the next year, I'd like to buy a gun; you know, when I have money. Probably a pistol, since, well, if I can carry, I might as well take advantage, and hey, in my apartment, a longarm would be overkill.

  • The only pistols I've really heard about or am thinking about are...maybe the Springfield XD? A Kahr, maybe?

Also, what caliber do you like? 9mm? .45? .40?

[[tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=12919183980B30760200 Liveblog of]] John Carter Of Mars
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#138: Mar 5th 2010 at 6:34:40 PM

There are several semi-auto shotguns available on the market. My favorite is the M1014.

The Issue with almost all suppressors is the quieter you get the lower your rounds velocity will be. Most suppressors wear out after so many shots and have to be replaced. They can be handy for hunting or if your an assassin or other shady operations type and need it very quiet.

The pistol grip on a rifle improves grip comfort and changes the stock to the shoulder profile a bit. As in the traditional rife your arm and hand help absorb a bit more of the recoil.

Glock,Sig Sauer, Colt, and couple others are good hand guns. For a home defense round honestly jacketed hollow-points 9mm non-nato standard work just fine. But if you want to be sure. A good reliable .40 or .45 cal pistol does very nicely. Keep in mind some of this is always debatable, the universal defense weapon is the pump action shotgun as the sound of a shell being jacked into the chamber is recognized the world round.

Who watches the watchmen?
JBridge null from Alameda, CA Since: Jan, 2001
null
#139: Mar 5th 2010 at 6:49:04 PM

This is a very good source for finding what guns were used in your favorite things. I really like their opening to their article on Black.

There's no space in the name.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#140: Mar 5th 2010 at 11:41:58 PM

We all know the AA-12 is going to reign supreme as far as combat shotguns are concerned. You just can't beat a More Dakka scattergun in close quarters.

Personally for close quarters however, not much beats the rifle caliber carbine like an M4, G 36 C or FN SCAR. Especially if it is bullpup like the TAR-21.

That makes me wonder, how effective would TAR-21s be in an American GI's hands? I've heard it is a vastly superior weapon in reliability than anything in Direct Impingement build (Famas, M16, M4, L85?). Does it work on a piston? Wikipedia gave me no answers in that regard.

I think the TAR-21 would be an excellent replacement for the M4/M16 series rifles. It's just an all-around excellent gun.

Though I would argue that in close quarters an SMG is your best bet, especially if it's chambered in .45 like an UMP. While I believe the AA-12 to be too impractical for the battlefield. There are just so many better alternatives, the ammunition is heavy and easily expended too. I mean yeah, whatever it's pointed at dies, but how many 12 gauge rounds can you carry? How many boxes of ammunition will you carry and how often will you need to stop and manually load shells into those boxes? That isn't too practical in a fight, I think of it as a nice gimmicky toy.

As far as SMG's go though, the MP 5 is pretty sweet, I got to shoot its .22 equivalent, and I love that ring sight it has, and the mag release is really easy to get to, though I had trouble putting the mags in without looking at the weapon, that might just be a muscle memory issue.

NotSoBadassLongcoat The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24 from People's Democratic Republic of Badassia (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Puppy love
The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24
#141: Mar 6th 2010 at 5:26:04 AM

This just in: some guy compared real F2000 to the new airsoft replica. The replica... feels more solid. Is it me or did FN Herstal mess something up big time?

"what the complete, unabridged, 4k ultra HD fuck with bonus features" - Mark Von Lewis
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#142: Mar 6th 2010 at 6:28:22 AM

Barkey if I wanted a submachinegun I would wait for something like the TDI Vector (it's featured in Modern Warfare 2 and is a kickass SMG). 1000 rounds per minute, minimal muzzle climb and good ergonomics.

But really, these days the submachinegun's days are just about over. Compact rifle caliber carbines weighing not much more than an MP5 are rising in prominence over pistol caliber SM Gs.

They still have some life left in the police markets owing to the low collateral damage capability, but in a military capacity their days are pretty much done.

I mean it's only a matter of time til somebody (if it hasn't already) makes a 5.56 weapon the size and weight of an MP5K.

Of course, there are drawbacks to increasingly small weaponry. Chiefly, recoil, range and accuracy. An MP5 sized weapon in 5.56 is not going to be able to hit anything worth a damn beyond 300 meters and is going to be less controllable than an M4 despite the 5.56's really low inherent recoil.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#143: Mar 6th 2010 at 3:49:47 PM

Which is why I'd rather just go with the SMG Tom.

Besides, 1000 rounds per minute is overrated. You shouldn't need that sort of rate of fire, it's not a weapon made for squad suppression. The advantage to the cut down size is being able to pie corners and maneuver better, .45 will do the job just fine if your enemy isn't packing 1st world military grade body armor, and even then odds are it will do the job. The weight will never be comparable to an MP 5 by virtue of the weight of a rifle cartridge compared to 9mm or .45 alone, much less the actual weapon itself somehow being cut down enough.

Aim worth a damn, and you don't need full auto. tongue I only see full auto as having a purpose with suppression tactics, I'd take a semi-automatic carbine over any other options though, nice and versatile. The military doesn't really need SMG's imho, an M4 works fine, though indoors I'd rather use a pistol as it's way easier to point shoot and pie corners.

edited 6th Mar '10 3:51:12 PM by Barkey

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#144: Mar 6th 2010 at 4:37:12 PM

The AA-12's boxes are just as difficult to load as M-16 mags, the drum magazine is another story but hey its 32 rounds per drum. The point of the AA-12 is to bring the CQC fire power of a shotgun with the ability to sweep rooms and large urban spaces that automatics have. Pluse you can use wider variety of ammo types for a variety of situations then say m-4's or other weapons.

Sub-machines will still have place because of the chances of operating in an urban environment with civilians present is high and the rounds don't usually over penetrate. They are used by special forces and as defensive weapons by non-front line troops nothing new there.

There are several weapon designs that fire full sized 5.56mm ammo in sub machine gun sized weapons. The use the high capacity C-mags or other versions of high capacity magazines.

The M-4 is a piece of crap. It breaks easily, overheats very easily, and fouls easily. There are even several accuracy issues with the weapon. There is a reason they want to replace it.

If you want a hard hitting round that will take down a target in one shot. The Beowulf .50 non-expanded/extended magazine is 10 rounds but each round will drop its target and it can even take light vehicles if need be. Can even penetrate light cover. The beauty of it, is that it fits on a m-4/m-16 lower receiver.

Hell if they want a decent Sub-Gun adapt that recoil system to Thompson with improved ammo drum.

edited 6th Mar '10 4:38:14 PM by TuefelHundenIV

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Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#145: Mar 6th 2010 at 8:29:11 PM

Maybe all of my liking towards the M4 is personal preference, though I do excitedly look forward to it's replacement via the SCAR eventually, or as mentioned something like a TAR-21.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#146: Mar 6th 2010 at 8:39:16 PM

Eh that is usually the case but the flaws it has makes me want a shotgun or sub-gun instead.

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Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#147: Mar 6th 2010 at 8:43:44 PM

For indoors I'd rather have a shotgun that fires semi, or a pistol. A carbine is a perfect compromise for me though, functions fine inside, even if it's a bit big for to pie a corner with sometimes, and you can still reach out and touch someone outside from extreme range.

Not sure what you mean about M4 accuracy though, we've got these nice M68 red dots on ours and you pretty much always hit what you aim at with those puppies once they are zero'd in. It's nice because then any gratuitous missing at the range can be chalked up to an issue with firing disciplines of the user and not the gun.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#148: Mar 6th 2010 at 8:55:40 PM

Couple of posts since I've been gone.

Yes, they do make rifled slugs for shotguns, but you have to use a rifled barrel for maximum benefit and you lose benefits for the shot rounds. Compare here.

I thought they already tried to make an AK 47 equivalent for the US. I think they did an episode of Future Tech on it.

edited 6th Mar '10 8:56:32 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#149: Mar 6th 2010 at 11:40:00 PM

Id have to see the episode.

I love the box of truth. Good stuff.

For the M-4's it comes from Barrel warping and the shorter barrel. Longer arms are pretty much more accurate. There was also an issue that it breaks easily when put under stress such as slamming into the ground while diving for cover etc etc.

But then again I have seen Marines bend a m-16 from the middle that's the two receiver parts using it as lift board for urban combat.

The M-4 is good for urban (Still Prefer a shotty for stopping power) not so good for distance.

The velocity of the round just isn't as high as full sized rifle. The semi-auto-shotguns are my preference as well. I like M-1014 because it has the adjustable parts and it handles well.

edited 6th Mar '10 11:42:02 PM by TuefelHundenIV

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009

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