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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#476: Apr 30th 2010 at 10:02:38 PM

Well the only real issues with the 249 is they suck at controlling their barrel heat and they are fairly heavy compared to other weapons. (Which is why the Marines were interested in the Infantry Automatic Rifle mixed-mode gun seen on Future Weapons)

The primary concern is slagging off the reputation of the M16 family of rifles that have been jamming and failing American GIs for over 40 years.

Direct impingement gas systems need to be put to bed forever. A bad idea that never should have been approved. Had Stoner left a piston in the original M16 he would have been the next John Garand or John Browning in terms of overhauling US arsenals. But noooooo.

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#477: Apr 30th 2010 at 11:34:41 PM

Just give me a FN FAL, and I'll be happy. Of course, California intervenes.

A brighter future for a darker age.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#478: May 1st 2010 at 12:54:08 AM

The Saw is actually pretty light. But it fouls very quickly, the barrels warp after prolonged firing, add in frequent malfunctions with heat and their poor performance and accuracy. They give them to the new guys in Marine Infantry squads for a reason.

Who watches the watchmen?
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#479: May 1st 2010 at 1:14:44 AM

Heh, my first position was as a SAW gunner. Took forever for my left arm to catch up to my right one in size, either I was a SAW gunner, spent too much time whacking off, or both.

I'm really sorta surprised that in the Zombie Survival Guide Max Brooks mentions the M1 Scout carbine as the penultimate zombie-fighting weapon for civilians yet fails to mention the M14 and M21, which are basically similar weapons (they're all M1 Garand-based, right?) but made to modern standards. And probably much more readily available and not as worn by the years (although I imagine there's still some number of Scouts that have lasted in good condition since WW 2).

The funny thing is there are civilian versions of both weapons that are easy to get a hold of. An M21 is pretty much just a box mag fed Remington 700 chambered for .338 Lapua. Get the .308 model with the detachable mag and you're pretty close to the same thing.

And in place of an M14, you can always just get an M 1 A, the civilian version which imho, is just as good if you kit it with a good and proper stock and glass.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#480: May 1st 2010 at 1:32:02 AM

Ahh come on Barkey the saw is not that heavy. Then again I got haul around the M-240G for a while. 22lbs with a box on. Has that nice shoulder strap. 27lbs for just the M-240 not counting ammo box attached or on your person. God I hated those damn dangling ammo boxes.

Who watches the watchmen?
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#481: May 1st 2010 at 1:37:15 AM

You have to take into account I'm a little dude, hauling around a SAW at 5'8 150 lbs isn't a walk in the park.

I have been a 240B gunner before though, thankfully those occasions rarely came up.

edited 1st May '10 1:37:48 AM by Barkey

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#482: May 1st 2010 at 2:54:36 AM

Come on Barkey your only an inch shorter then me :P But I'm of Stocky Scottish stock.

Who watches the watchmen?
Iverum from outside the key Since: Jun, 2009
#483: May 1st 2010 at 3:08:31 AM

Thanks for the responses about the pistol question.

Another question: what practical use is an automatic shotgun?

dysfunctional human artistry
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#484: May 1st 2010 at 3:26:31 AM

I'm a lanky Russian Tueffel, we work in high endurance, not overall strength, the guy from Rocky is the rare exception to the Russian build. :P

Ok, plenty of people will probably argue with me here, but I find for any sort of protracted engagement an automatic shotgun is useless, hell, it's useless for police too.

  • Heavy ammunition for not enough of a benefit.
  • Can use an entire drum way too quickly.
  • Not suited for police action, too much collateral damage.

In a military situation, a shotgun, let's say the AA-12, would only be suited to urban environments. Totally strung up with ammunition in addition to already 55 pounds of kit for a Garrison kit, not including the shit you have if you go outside the wire on an actual mission.. You might get by with a drum in the weapon, and maybe have 3-4 of them stowed on you, and that's pushing it.

You COULD have designated people carry extra drums of shotgun ammo, but we already do that with crew served machineguns like the 240B.

Tbh if you need a weapon that causes close range destruction on that scale, just toss a frag in the room, you can carry many more of those. A semi-automatic shotgun with a high shell capacity is the best suited shotgun to military and law enforcement operations.

You wouldn't give them to Law Enforcement, a carbine and a shotgun for regular patrol officers that sits in the trunk of the squadcar is fine, they don't need an automatic shotgun.

For SWAT team situations, you still don't want an AA-12, the MP 5 works even better for room clearing via being short and lightweight. If you need more punch than 9mm, go to an UMP instead, they're chambered for .45. Select fire on an MP 5 between full auto and single shot allows for much more discretion, and MP 5's can also be silenced.

Sorry if this post sounds intense, but I see alot of fully auto shotgun fans out on the net who just think it's the most badass and necessary weapon of the future for infantry based fighting, it's not. Just because you can hold down the trigger and send a massive can of whoopass in one straight funnel that'll kill anything in its path isn't enough, American forces rely on precision and accuracy, and can achieve the same results as an automatic shotgun with much more subtlety.

edited 1st May '10 3:30:46 AM by Barkey

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#485: May 1st 2010 at 8:19:14 AM

I wonder, at 27 lbs (which to be frank isn't much more than the old BAR) I wonder how hard it is to fire the 240B from the shoulder? I'd think it would be if you had the highest gas setting and fire rate (which is like 950 rpm?) but on the lower settings it would be manageable.

I wonder if there's any way to lighten it so you can have it operate more like an M60 than a .50 cal M2.

Bah don't mind that too much, I just prefer shot power over ammunition carrying capacity. I'd rather have a rifle or machine gun that can knock a guy over at 600 meters on 1-2 hits to center mass than have a lighter weight ammo that takes 3-5 times as much to achieve the same result depending on distance and body armor.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#486: May 1st 2010 at 9:18:09 AM

It doesn't help in an operation where supply lines aren't right behind you, and it takes one drum to kill each enemy.

You can fire a 240 from the shoulder, it's just not very accurate.

edited 1st May '10 9:18:25 AM by Barkey

Charlatan Since: Mar, 2011
#487: May 1st 2010 at 12:20:52 PM

Speaking of LMGs, I heard H&K no longer manufactures the MG 36. Is this true? Why is this?

NotSoBadassLongcoat The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24 from People's Democratic Republic of Badassia (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Puppy love
The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24
#488: May 1st 2010 at 1:33:40 PM

I guess it's because it was just a normal assault rifle with a bipod and a C-Mag, not quite fitting the role of a LMG.

"what the complete, unabridged, 4k ultra HD fuck with bonus features" - Mark Von Lewis
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#489: May 1st 2010 at 3:39:28 PM

Probably because the line was not as profitable as it used to be.

The Auto-shotguns are pretty much suited for Urban environment combat situations, reaction teams, security, basically its an assaulter/defender weapon. I wouldn't send it out on a patrol. Most shotguns serve a similar role. its more effective for mobile line patrols to have LMG's in lieu of the shotguns. If you need a CQC weapon for a patrol SMG's are the better option.

edited 1st May '10 3:40:20 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Charlatan Since: Mar, 2011
#490: May 1st 2010 at 3:41:20 PM

I've heard proposals that auto-shotguns replace LMGs in jungle operations to increase the likelihood of hitting a concealed target. Basically an anti-ambush weapon.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#491: May 1st 2010 at 4:14:20 PM

I'm positive shotguns have lower penetration than regular rounds. Is the AA 12 smooth bore or rifled? Off to The Other Wiki!

Fight smart, not fair.
Charlatan Since: Mar, 2011
#492: May 1st 2010 at 4:14:55 PM

You could load it with flechette cartridges.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#493: May 1st 2010 at 4:18:11 PM

True, but you'd have to design the cartridge first. The Other Wiki doesn't say if it's rifled or smooth bore. The did mention that there's a helicopter UAV armed with it though.

Breaking News: Several terrorists were killed yesterday by a remote controlled flying shotgun.

Fight smart, not fair.
Charlatan Since: Mar, 2011
#494: May 1st 2010 at 4:20:44 PM

If it's a scatter-type flechette cartridge then it's likely not rifled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#495: May 1st 2010 at 4:26:38 PM

I meant the AA 12. I couldn't tell if the barrel is rifled or not. It fires both buckshot and slug, generally you don't do that. Although slug+smooth bore seems to be more forgiving than shot+rifled.

Fight smart, not fair.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#496: May 1st 2010 at 4:29:22 PM

There are already flechette shotgun shells.

There are also Fanchette Hydra rockets, the Beehive flechette shell, hell there was even a flechette assault rifle.

Almost forgot a Flechette Dispenser bomb Kinda Cool

edited 1st May '10 4:33:25 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Charlatan Since: Mar, 2011
#497: May 1st 2010 at 4:30:12 PM

The slug they're working on for the AA-12 is a specialized spring-loaded-fin-stabilized microgrenade round. The fins mean it stabilizes itself instead of needing rifling.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#498: May 1st 2010 at 4:30:48 PM

I was just going off what The Other Wiki said. It referenced three rounds: buck shot, slug, and grenade. Hence my assumption that there wasn't round for that gun yet.

It is designed to fire three different types of 3" 12 gauge shells: Buckshot, slug, or Frag-12 rounds.

edited 1st May '10 4:32:17 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.
WoolieWool Heading for tomorrow Since: Jan, 2001
Heading for tomorrow
#499: May 1st 2010 at 10:26:34 PM

n a military situation, a shotgun, let's say the AA-12, would only be suited to urban environments. Totally strung up with ammunition in addition to already 55 pounds of kit for a Garrison kit, not including the shit you have if you go outside the wire on an actual mission.. You might get by with a drum in the weapon, and maybe have 3-4 of them stowed on you, and that's pushing it.

You COULD have designated people carry extra drums of shotgun ammo, but we already do that with crew served machineguns like the 240B.

This actually sounds like a great idea for the more literal varieties of Space Marines since aboard ships you would have no need for a GPMG-type weapon. Each squad would have a shotgunner instead of an automatic rifleman (yes, that's what they still call machinegunners even though everyone uses assault rifles these days) and other men in the squad carry additional drums. I'd suggest having a rate of fire of only around 240 rpm to make it more controllable. That might not sound like a lot, but it's two 12 gauge shells per second, and that will kill anything dead.

Can I post fluff and pictures about fictional weapons from my sci-fi universe to get feedback from you gun nuts out there?

edited 1st May '10 10:28:42 PM by WoolieWool

Out of Context Theater: Mike K "'Bloody Pussies' cracked me up"
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#500: May 1st 2010 at 10:31:27 PM

The reason they call them automatic riflemen is that almost all the rifles the US Military don't use full auto anymore, just single and burst. Even then it's rare for us to go on burst.


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