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Need a bettter explanation, or a split: Lightning Bruiser

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VioletOrange Since: Jul, 2010
#26: Nov 6th 2010 at 2:13:38 PM

@ rodney Anonymous

Well maybe my English is better than your French, but we are in an English writing forum, not a French one, so I think that being a little humble won't hurt me, especially if I cause a minor inconvenience because of it. Anyways Nimble Mountain sounds perfect for me

@ Rhatahema

No he was explaining that the confusion between Stone Wall(almost no damage) and Mighty Glacier (damage a lot).

@Twilightdusk,

I made a preindex which recapitulate every kind of build if you want

edited 6th Nov '10 2:20:24 PM by VioletOrange

Rakath Purple Since: Jan, 2001
Purple
#27: Nov 6th 2010 at 2:14:30 PM

Stone Wall is about defense above all else. The idea that the best defense is a good defense. If they're fast, it isn't for causing Death of a Thousand Cuts (a tactic of the Fragile Speedster), it's to add to defense.

If we don't count Stone Wall as Durability above all else, we shouldn't stick Mighty Glacier in that role. Mighty Glacier is about Power and Durability at the cost of speed.

Who needs a signature, really?
Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#28: Nov 6th 2010 at 2:26:25 PM

[up][up] Didn't notice that, sorry.

edited 6th Nov '10 2:26:32 PM by Twilightdusk

Rhatahema Since: Sep, 2010
#29: Nov 6th 2010 at 2:36:50 PM

^^^Oh I see what happened. When I said it was a mistake to assume a Stone Wall was slow, I wasn't responding to Twilightdusk's post, but rather to earlier comments that suggested a Stone Wall was slow, and that we needed a new trope for examples of fast Stone Walls. Some related trope pages say otherwise though, so I'll correct those when I see them.

edited 6th Nov '10 2:37:29 PM by Rhatahema

Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#30: Nov 6th 2010 at 2:39:22 PM

So, should "Fast Stone Wall" be a soft-split on the Stone Wall page, or be the Speed+Durability trope?

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#31: Nov 6th 2010 at 2:40:06 PM

EDIT: Gah, wrong page.

edited 6th Nov '10 2:40:27 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
VioletOrange Since: Jul, 2010
#32: Nov 6th 2010 at 3:01:18 PM

[up][up] For the sake of having every situation clearly identified (without the description, would you have guess that you can use Stone Wall to have fast and durable ?), I think it's better and prettier if we split up everything in a trope that fit it(that is, limiting Stone Wall to durable only, which will remove one example and need a little rewriting, and create Nimble Mountain).

My only reserve for that is that I'm afraid that there isn't much of Nimble Mountain build to complete the trope. But, I haven't read, watch and play everything, so I may be wrong

edited 6th Nov '10 3:01:57 PM by VioletOrange

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#33: Nov 6th 2010 at 3:20:14 PM

I can think of two examples of Nimble Mountain right off - the aforementioned Joey Jones, whose powers primarily consist of Super-Speed and nigh-impenetrable forcefields, and Tankers from City Of Heroes, who arguably have the weakest damage output in the game, but are very, very difficult to kill and (since they can get movement powers like Super-Speed, flight, teleportation, and so on just as easily as any other hero) blindingly fast if they want to be.

I'd be amazed if there wren't some superheroes who counted, too.

edited 6th Nov '10 3:22:18 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
Rhatahema Since: Sep, 2010
#34: Nov 6th 2010 at 3:24:00 PM

I just noticed that Stone Wall has the redirect Party Tank. It was probably a mistake to say that it needs to be split between speed and durability, because I think its focus is on any character who is an attack/damage sponge, and that it doesn't make much difference if that's due to being durable, fast, well armored, etc. It seems a little outside of the "three stat" classification we've been trying to fit these tropes under, and should probably emphasis that less in its own description.

So, to simplify the discussion a little, what character types (not stat pairings) do we not have a trope page for? A character who is fast/durable (Nimble Mountain) is probably going to play the role of a Stone Wall (Stone Wall isn't a very good name). The only thing that I see lacking is a space for characters who move fast and are fragile, but have very slow but powerful attacks. I think there is room for these under Fragile Speedster, but it might be worth having its own page.

Rakath Purple Since: Jan, 2001
Purple
#35: Nov 6th 2010 at 3:52:05 PM

Some of these differ when they are used as enemies. Stone Walls, for instance, are an issue to beat, without being much of a threat. They would just rank as a kind of annoyance. Nimble Mountain will be a bit of a threat, and even more annoying than a Stone Wall.

A trope for combatants with an atypical power use schedule (long recharge time to offset being a Glass Ninja for instance) would be a Competitive Balance trope... I just can't think of a name for it.

Who needs a signature, really?
DRCEQ Since: Oct, 2009
#36: Nov 6th 2010 at 4:03:49 PM

I'd say that all of these need a serious rewrite to make sure that none of them can count as any other, REGARDLESS OF THE REASON.

Even if a Stone Wall can be fast and evasive, this should mean that they absolutely positively cannot be anything else relating to speed. Here need to be strict boundaries and cut-off points so they don't overlap unless they're suppose to.

VioletOrange Since: Jul, 2010
#37: Nov 6th 2010 at 4:25:48 PM

My first listing doesn't seems to be good. The minus signs means that the character is weak in those point, the plus that he is good in those point

The complete listing
damage - speed - and durability + => Stone Wall
damage - speed + and durability - => Fragile Speedster
damage + speed - and durability - => Glass Cannon
damage + speed - and durability + => Mighty Glacier
damage - speed + and durability + => Nimble Mountain (not created)
damage + speed + and durability - => Glass Ninja (not created)
damage + speed + and durability + => Lightning Bruiser

The actual problem with Stone Wall
The name Stone Wall is very misleading if you can have fast builds : I dare anyone to guess the description from the title, and not suggest only the build who emphasize only the durability.
The solution: Modify the description to have durable and slow character only and replace Yuuno from Stone Wall to Nimble Mountain (he is , as far as I can tell the only one in Stone Wall to be durable and fast).

the problem with Fragile Speedster
People don't read the description, which is for build which sacrifice everything for speed and add Glass Ninja example.
The solution: create the Glass Ninja tropes should reduce the confusion.

the problem with Glass Cannon
the trope could use a split : there is a huge difference between an artillery unit and a typical Glass Ninja unit.

The problem with Lightning Bruiser
He has two set of example : Glass Ninja example and one that can be described as a fast Mighty Glacier.
The solution: remove the Glass Ninja set of example and replace it in the newly created trope Glass Ninja

As a general conclusion :

Glass Ninja Build are put into three completely different tropes, and in two of them, those build should not be there (only the Glass Cannon actually tolerate them in his description).
Because the name Stone Wall is misleading, the build which put emphasis on durability and speed seems to not be present on Tv Tropes

edit : add the italic not and delete the entry Mario

edited 6th Nov '10 4:46:52 PM by VioletOrange

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#38: Nov 6th 2010 at 4:32:03 PM

Technically, The Mario simply lacks an advantage in one of those, rather than being weak at all of them.

Fight smart, not fair.
VioletOrange Since: Jul, 2010
#39: Nov 6th 2010 at 4:42:58 PM

I just remark a mistake on my precedent post : Glass Cannon are actually everything who lacks durability and provide good damage (so actually they are supposed to be the Glass Ninja and the Glass Cannon, something that isn't very well understood considering the number of Glass Cannon + Fragile Speedster that I saw).

On another note, I completely agree with DRCEQ on having one trope for each build.

I would add that having one build for each trope should eliminate the confusion by making sure that you know where you should put your example.

[up] Yeah you are right, but I didn't want to add confusion with = sign

edited 6th Nov '10 4:47:39 PM by VioletOrange

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#40: Nov 6th 2010 at 4:46:05 PM

[up] Could just remove The Mario from that list, instead. But maybe there is something I don't understand, in which case, ignore me.

edited 6th Nov '10 4:47:50 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#42: Nov 6th 2010 at 5:08:42 PM

I don't get why Glass Ninja would be a good name for a fast + powerful character. Ninjas may be fast, but they're a lot of other things too, and the trope doesn't cover stealth or other ninja stuff, and super-strength is not something I associate with ninjas.

Also, a fast Glass Cannon still fits fine under Glass Cannon. Glass Cannon is about sacrificing defense for offense, independent of speed. In many settings (turn-based strategy, for example), getting the first strike is a big part of offense anyway.

Rakath Purple Since: Jan, 2001
Purple
#43: Nov 6th 2010 at 5:16:43 PM

We could go the other side with Glass Samurai. A lot of Bushido is built on being lethal on the first strike. The same aspect Ninja is representing here (lethality and speed).

The thing about Glass Cannon that suggests lack of speed is the word Cannon. Cannons are bad at speed, ask anyone that's seen a cannon in action. Meaning even if the original intent of the name was power for durability. Power for durability and speed is in the name, even if its incidental.

Who needs a signature, really?
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#44: Nov 6th 2010 at 5:24:57 PM

But isn't Glass Cannon a pre-existing term used to describe something powerful but fragile?

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#46: Nov 6th 2010 at 5:34:34 PM

I don't think Glass Cannon implies anything about speed, just "high offense, low defense". A Glass Cannon could be fast or slow. Seems like this is getting into Square Peg Round Trope territory. Couple of the existing "builds" are considering two attributes (offense and defense), not three (offense and defense and speed). Vote to make articles less specific and cut some, instead of making articles more specific and adding some.

edited 6th Nov '10 5:41:18 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Servbot Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#47: Nov 6th 2010 at 5:36:05 PM

The solution: Modify the description to have durable and slow character only and replace Yuuno from Stone Wall to Nimble Mountain (he is , as far as I can tell the only one in Stone Wall to be durable and fast).

Really? He seems to be average speed at most in that verse. He lacks Flash Step moves, doesn't move much in most battles he participates in, and isn't noted for his speed and movement the way Fate, Signum, and Erio are.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#48: Nov 6th 2010 at 5:41:36 PM

On the other hand, he's a teleportation expert. Can't get much faster than instant repositioning.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Servbot Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#49: Nov 6th 2010 at 5:51:00 PM

True, however Teleportation in the Nanohaverse isn't instantaneous the way Nightcrawler's is (more of Star Trek speed, i.e. has some start-up time).

Hmm... though this does make me wonder about something. If someone is Average Speed, High Defense, does that person go to Stone Wall or Nimble Mountain?

edited 6th Nov '10 6:51:44 PM by Servbot

Glidergun life is a game Since: Jan, 2001
life is a game
#50: Nov 6th 2010 at 6:19:55 PM

I don't think Stone Wall and Glass Cannon need to say anything about speed. They're opposite ends of a nominal axis of offense-focused/defense-focused. You can have a slow Glass Cannon (artillery) or a fast Glass Cannon (Squishy Wizard with all the mobility options on), and you can have a slow Stone Wall (default brick) or a fast Stone Wall (blink tank with bad offense).

It seems to me that Fragile Speedster and Mighty Glacier are opposite ends of another axis which is not quite perpendicular, in which the relevant extremes are high-speed/high-everything else.

The Fragile Speedster-Glass Cannon combo might be common and intentional enough to warrant a trope page on it, but I don't see Fragile Speedster-Stone Wall as really a thing that should have its own page.

I think at least one problem is the name of Lightning Bruiser, which is pretty similar to other "character type" names, while the described character type is above them. Change it to God Tier Stats or something.

Each night, he abandons the trappings of civilization. Each morning, he repairs the front door.

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