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Deconstructing Magical Girls

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G.G. Since: Dec, 1969
#101: Nov 4th 2009 at 7:25:28 PM

So what about all the symbolism in stuff in the literature of deconstruction or do I need all that symbolism?

ShayGuy Since: Jan, 2001
#102: Nov 4th 2009 at 9:39:00 PM

Why? What would you want to use symbolism for?

zeroplusalpha The World Is Mine from behind the 7th Door Since: Apr, 2009
The World Is Mine
#103: Nov 4th 2009 at 9:41:51 PM

If you're not careful (or subtle) with employing symbolism, you leave yourself open to all sorts of criticisms...

edited 4th Nov '09 9:42:15 PM by zeroplusalpha

Play Again? Y/N
G.G. Since: Dec, 1969
#104: Nov 6th 2009 at 7:47:53 PM

The Defeat Means Friendship trope annoys me to death, it is not that is but it is used way too much in Nanoha and Touhou. The protagonists are too overpowered and somehow always "right" about things, I am beginning to hate this trope but I want to be non critical about this. How can I deconstruct, subvert and even avert this trope? I know that some people may not be so bad but still that is not too say that our world is not full of bastards. I want to deconstruct this trope violently, I guess it mostly out of annoyance if anything. Again I ask,

edited 6th Nov '09 7:48:29 PM by G.G.

Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#105: Nov 6th 2009 at 8:57:58 PM

You could have the defeated become even more set in their ways because it cements the person who defeated them as their enemy. I mean, think about it, when a person beats the shit out of you, you're rarely inclined to like them more.

You can even play it so that the antagonists lose confidence in their cause and allies, but keep fighting because they've suffered so much for their cause, and lost so much to the protagonists, that they can't bear to give up.

Of course, that's not so much a deconstruction as a subversion, since you're not really playing the trope at all.

edited 6th Nov '09 8:58:35 PM by Desertopa

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
WilliamWideWeb (weaving) Since: Jan, 2001
(weaving)
#106: Nov 6th 2009 at 10:16:25 PM

Put Defeat Means Friendship on the villain's side.

SHIKI is dead.
AceOfScarabs I am now a shiny stone~ from Singapore Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
I am now a shiny stone~
#107: Nov 7th 2009 at 2:52:48 AM

An interesting idea would be to have the Magical Girl realise her opponent actually had the right idea, and then she rebels against the Power that gifted her with magic.

The Power then punishes her by corrupting her magical ability, which weakens her even more than if she were to be merely depowered, starting up a story arc where she has to discover a new kind of power and restore her damaged strength.

The three finest things in life are to splat your enemies, drive them from their turf, and hear their lamentations as their rank falls!
Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#108: Nov 7th 2009 at 2:56:06 AM

Put Defeat Means Friendship on the villain's side.

Precisely, have the villain be this charismatic person who keeps beating up the heroine's Nakama and having them switch sides.

And most importnatly, don't have them snap out of it.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
zeroplusalpha The World Is Mine from behind the 7th Door Since: Apr, 2009
The World Is Mine
#109: Nov 7th 2009 at 6:21:47 AM

^That's still just Might Makes Right, only from the other side.

The thing with Nanoha is that she does actually happen to be right all the time, and it's not really her (outrageously broken) strength that makes it so.

If you wanted to deconstruct that, you'd have to make the weaker one "right", whatever that means.

EDIT: Removed a couple of irrelevant things.

edited 7th Nov '09 6:53:53 AM by zeroplusalpha

Play Again? Y/N
prescience Friendly Satanist from Present Day,Present Time Since: Jan, 2001
Friendly Satanist
#110: Nov 7th 2009 at 6:43:26 AM

^That's still just Might Makes Right, only from the other side.
Not necessarily. The villain could be wrong but still get the heroine's allies to defect.

In Soviet Nanoha, Fate Tempts You | Spoiler visibility bookmarklet
zeroplusalpha The World Is Mine from behind the 7th Door Since: Apr, 2009
The World Is Mine
#111: Nov 7th 2009 at 6:45:33 AM

That's actually what I meant. Despite being wrong, the fact that you're stronger is enough to validate your...wrongness, and, uh, make it seem...right.

(Bollocks, words are not my friend today >_<).

Play Again? Y/N
G.G. Since: Dec, 1969
#112: Nov 7th 2009 at 8:19:42 AM

If you wanted to deconstruct that, you'd have to make the weaker one "right", whatever that means.

I gues it is similar when Kenshin fought with Shishio who then tells Yahiko (I wish I kew the specific quote) that he won because he was a better swordsman, not because he was right in any regard.

edited 7th Nov '09 8:20:37 AM by G.G.

Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#113: Nov 7th 2009 at 9:45:02 AM

If the main character befriended all of his/her allies by defeating them, you could always have all of them defect when the Big Bad defeats the entire group.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
zeroplusalpha The World Is Mine from behind the 7th Door Since: Apr, 2009
The World Is Mine
#114: Nov 7th 2009 at 9:50:31 AM

But then you'd have to figure how your protagonist is actually going to win without stretching credibility (unless you're gunning for a Downer Ending). She's just lost all her allies; it's going to be hard to make a comeback from that one. You could give her new ones, one she makes with a little more prudence this time, but then we're encroaching on Loads And Loads Of Characters territory.

Play Again? Y/N
FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Reverse the Curse
#115: Nov 7th 2009 at 12:02:23 PM

@Ace of Scarabs: Hey, I'm writing something like that! I still haven't found a title yet, but it turns out that the villains-of-the-week they've all been defeating are former members of teams put together by the Society that gathered them, because the Haidoro Society's actual business is biochemical research; they've been performing tests on the girls and all their other employees without their knowledge. They went for a Magical Girl motif this time around because of the tendency of such protagonists to earnestly believe that what they are doing is right, and damn any facts to the contrary - this gives my reason for why it has to be young girls; they're easier to manipulate. The 'Villains' eventually manage to rescue the girls, and the second half of the story deals with them trying to bring down their former benefactors.

A True Lady's Quest - A Jojo is You!
Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#116: Nov 7th 2009 at 2:21:38 PM

But then you'd have to figure how your protagonist is actually going to win without stretching credibility (unless you're gunning for a Downer Ending). She's just lost all her allies; it's going to be hard to make a comeback from that one. You could give her new ones, one she makes with a little more prudence this time, but then we're encroaching on Loads And Loads Of Characters territory.

You could try having the main character win by use of superior tactics. Not fighting smarter in one on one or few on one combat, but actual warfare. The antagonists are defeated because, although the Big Bad is stupidly overpowered, he/she has no competence as a leader. In fact, you could play it so that by the time the protagonists encounter the Big Bad a second time, they've effectively won already.

That way, you can subvert not only Defeat Means Friendship, but All Up to You. In the grand scheme of things, the small elite band of friends the main character gathered weren't very useful anyway. The really important allies were the Mooks, Mission Control, and various Non Action Guys who allow the main character to win the war, not just minor skirmishes.

edited 7th Nov '09 2:22:56 PM by Desertopa

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#117: Nov 7th 2009 at 3:08:22 PM

That's actually what I meant. Despite being wrong, the fact that you're stronger is enough to validate your...wrongness, and, uh, make it seem...right.

Yes, or rather, sort of. One way of subverting Might Makes Right is simply to point the rather obvious fact that it doesen't.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
ShayGuy Since: Jan, 2001
#118: Nov 7th 2009 at 6:42:39 PM

I liked the way the School Festival arc of Mahou Sensei Negima pulled off the inherent moral ambiguity of the matter at hand. In general, I like the idea of opponents who would get along great, who want to not have to fight each other, who recognize the validity of the other's stance, but are unwilling to compromise their ideals or loyalties. You want to take it far enough, you could make it so that neither could respect the other if the other were to defect. "I believe that opposing him is the right thing for me to do, but I also believe that opposing me is the right thing for him to do."

You could also have the hero manage to befriend the villain despite losing — I think the Naruto fanfic Time and Again pulled that off with Gaara.

Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#119: Nov 7th 2009 at 7:06:29 PM

I'm astonished this one didn't occur to me before, but you could have the main character switch sides after being defeated. There's a lot you could do with that.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
G.G. Since: Dec, 1969
#120: Nov 7th 2009 at 7:48:50 PM

Yeah, there is but could I also use some of those gender and sexuality themeses as well? Does anyone have essays or some literature on the topic?

FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Reverse the Curse
#121: Nov 7th 2009 at 8:10:26 PM

Post by Korg regarding 'In Defense of Women' in 5, 4, 3...

Just remember that 14 year old girls are some of the most ignorant and vicious sapients on the planet. You can either use that to deconstruct the sweetness and optimism of the Mahou Shoujo genre, or you can reconstruct it, since most of us are getting sick of all these oh-so-clever tsundere sues that show up in fanfiction to rock the casbah, under their own limited definition of 'rocking' (hint: it often involves My Chemical Romance).

Yes, thank you, Will, I'm not a moron. Some of us have ten tabs open at the moment.

edited 7th Nov '09 8:56:20 PM by FurikoMaru

A True Lady's Quest - A Jojo is You!
WilliamWideWeb (weaving) Since: Jan, 2001
Wraith_Magus Bibliophiliac Since: Jun, 2009
Bibliophiliac
#123: Nov 8th 2009 at 11:50:55 AM

Sorry for being out of the conversation for so long, but...

The Defeat Means Friendship trope annoys me to death, it is not that is but it is used way too much in Nanoha and Touhou. The protagonists are too overpowered and somehow always "right" about things, I am beginning to hate this trope but I want to be non critical about this. How can I deconstruct, subvert and even avert this trope? I know that some people may not be so bad but still that is not too say that our world is not full of bastards. I want to deconstruct this trope violently, I guess it mostly out of annoyance if anything. Again I ask,

Well, be careful not to fall too much to The Barney. Those shows are about cute girls who fight. The reason you watch is to see cute girls who can do neat shit, and so you can draw an empathic bond with your favorite character. If you start liking a character, and then they start beating the shit out of her, make her go over the deep end, and then rip her apart piece by piece, few who showed up for the original premise - liking cute girls who do neat shit - are going to be happy with the show.

"Realism" is no excuse for "entertainment" that makes you feel like shit, or is just bad, after all. Hell, see that whole FATAL thread in Live Bloginations...

Of course, with that said, if you start the thing off with an entirely different premise, and pitch it to a different audience, then you're in a totally different ballgame, but there isn't much point in deconstructing something to someone who would never have been interested in, or already hated the original genre to begin with, as well, so it's a balancing act.


Put Defeat Means Friendship on the villain's side.

THAT seems much more interesting.

To get back to the last quote for a second, the heroines of Touhou are not "right". They are, at best, Grey On Grey Morality, and frankly, the last game portrayed the Yōkai more as victims than aggressors. The "heroines" are motivated either by greed for promised riches, or just a chance to kick some youkai girl's teeth in (poor Kogasa...), while the "villains" were following an ex-exorcist who protects youkai from humans, and turned into one, herself.

Hell, Marisa is a Kleptomaniac Hero to the core of her being (yet Reimu rivals her, still... and Sanae is growing sadist tendencies in the fanworks nowadays, as well) and most of her "partnerships" are based around a foundation of her stealing from those people repeatedly. In spite of canonically and fanonically treating their friends and lovers like shit, Reimu and Marisa both have Memetic Sex God status.

They're Byronic Heroes at best.

So yeah, make the villain make some good points, and have defections to the villains because they're actually willing to treat others with respect that they couldn't get on the other side. Maybe have defections to both sides. Or shifting faction-based allegiances where your friend today is your enemy tommorow because of the machinations of unknown back-door power brokering between various occult powers, to which many characters owe their absolute allegiance, but for (initially) unknown reasons.

You should also make this whole thing based not upon actual defeat means friendship, but rather actual charisma or cunning. The villain might be able to exploit the hopes and fears of others, or simply charm them all with twisted truths to follow him without any coercion at all, by giving people what they really want. Hell, you could even go with a Lelouche-style hero who gains allies through cunning and deceit, but who loses those friends because they can't trust him, while the villain has the ability to paint himself as "right", even if the hero can logically disprove that notion.

On the whole subject of might makes right, and more importantly, Right Makes Might, however, there are several ways to fix the aesop. If "Might Makes Right" is wrong, then you can generally prove it in some way, provided you are willing to look beyond the immediate. Maybe the villain's greatest weakness, that the hero exploits to win, was inflicted in vengeance by someone they betrayed, or the heros only gain the powers that they used to defeat the villain thanks to some overt sacrifice they made. In fact, the subject material tends to go for a much more anvilicious version of Right Makes Might, and make the Wave-Motion Gun literally The Power of Love.

G.G. Since: Dec, 1969
#124: Nov 8th 2009 at 9:00:59 PM

man, that was inspirational, I got some research to do.

Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#125: Nov 8th 2009 at 9:47:54 PM

One subversion of Right Makes Might that I came up with (which you're free to use, I have far too many ideas to get possessive about the ones I'm not going to get around to writing myself) involves a character who implicitly believes this, and it's made him miserable. He's an incredible fighter, and has never lost a fight in his adult life. He's faced people willing to give everything they had for their country, their friends, their lovers or children, people who absolutely refuse on principle ever to give up.... and easily defeated them all. And if all of these things crumble so easily against his strength, he reasons, what can they be worth? It's given him a strong nihilistic streak (and not in the Nietzsche Wannabe sense,) and he desperately wants to find some cause that actually means something, and would thus allow someone to defeat him. That is, until he encounters the main character, who tells him that Causes Don't Work That Way, and launches into a speech about how the worth of causes isn't determined by some supernatural strength you get for being in the right, but by virtue of meaning so much to the people who believe in them.

edited 8th Nov '09 9:50:03 PM by Desertopa

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.

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