I don't think it's that we've run out of steam for making characters, hell I have like ten more but I've bên severely delayed and due to some necessary order issues had to submit Tenshou five times before he passed. And not to insult Ruki, but I think this has more on part to do with the creators rather then the ideas or endurance of the posters, I think before people submit a character they really have to actually make a character, not just a fun idea or concept, but a character with a plot and issues and possible stories, once again not to insult anybody but we got a lot of one trick ponies in this thread, I think if people actually predicted and made before hand discussion materiel it'd help the pace stay up.
You could fuse them into one gelatinous mass and get them out in one fell swoop. The only thing is that it'd need a name and Legion has been done to death.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersLate-Night Post that will probably get ignored, but I had to go to a movie and cut my previous post short.
To further explain, it's like a name-brand, lets say you have two drinks poured into cups, one is a name brand and the other is not, you probably won't be able to tell the difference between them without the label, now ask, would this character still be good even if you took out the Touhou name and characters? As we know it is impossible to be original, everything has some sort of base for characters and settings and Touhou has these too, so ask yourself that if you took out Reimu and Marisa, and replaced them with average, aloof, special hero and eccentric, crafty, second man would your characters still hold up? If you took out the already strongly characterized Touhou characters and replaced them with similar ones would they be their own characters or copies? And that's the thing, I don't think Touhou character are defined by how loose they are, but actually by the high amount of characterization they recieve.
The Touhou characters receive their large number of alternate interpretations not from a lack of material but from an abundance of it, there is so much "materiel" that it blends together to form complex dynamic characters who can be seen from different angles like how real people can be interpreted differently depending on the person. Even characters built around one concept build so much on that one concept that it stretches to become a complex trait which functions as many different traits by itself. And perhaps the most important of this, is the relations between the characters, these relations are probably what make up over 75% of the "material" and what build the complex web of views that surround the characters and give them their complex depth, and here is where I think the problem of slowing discussion comes in, the new characters rely too much on the canon ones, these build weak connections in the "web" and limit the amount of discussion.
To explain the "web", look at Aya and Momiji, Aya functions as a character without Momiji, but Momiji needs Aya because that is her only source of characterization and the link back to the rest of the web, Aya interacts with almost everyone and has a strong characterization for it, she is also very popular to use in fanworks, ranking in the high-average level, while Momiji is used she appears less frequently then Aya, and when she does appear it will almost always in some relation to Aya whether it be antagonistic or friendly, this is because this is her one relation who is related to many other characters working in a "transfer" of characterization, hence the "web", Koakuma is the same as her main relation is Patches, while you see Patches without Koa, you will almost never see Koa without Patches.
And then look at the least popular characters, Letty, the Aki sisters, the Phantom Ensemble, if you notice they have little relations outside of themselves, the last two only have relations within the group making it hard to connect them back to the web, Letty only has one with Cirno, however Cirno does not get vital characterization from Letty, hence why "with and without occurs" and of a more frequent scale then Aya-Momiji as Aya does get a chuck of characterization from Momiji.
And this is why the discussion has slowed for newer characters, they're like Letty and the Aki Sisters, just another boss to blow up, a really cool trick or concept that gets the votes but once you start to look at them there's not much to look at without just pulling stuff out of thin air, and even that doesn't boost it by much as it's even more artificial then the artificial stuff. For example I was a bit disappointed that so many of the new profiles fall back on "Marisa and Reimu" as the protagonists, such an important position that has such a wide scope of possibilities and it just gets relegated back to Marisa and Reimu, why not make a new character? It makes it more interesting as you now have more characters for people to learn about and more submissions for future polls; it builds the world you made and makes your web even stronger leading to higher possibilities of interpretation.
Ask yourself what the other characters related to this one lose should they be removed, or the "with and without" scenario. For example the Reimu-Remilia relation, while they receive characterization for it it's not vital to their characters or in great amounts, hence why even though there is a noticeable amount of fanwork about it, it is not above average tier or appear more then the Sakuya-Remilia relation which is vital. And that's the problem with characters like Akumu, while she is a cool character nothing is lost if she's cut, look at each Touhou game, it's not just one boss who messes stuff up, but a whole new cast of characters with a new strong web to add to the current one, I mean would Byakuran have been as memorable without the rest of the UFO cast?
And while it's not bad to use canon characters, it's bad when you use them as a crutch, using the already strong characterization to prop up your character's characterization can lead to a weak web which can easily be disconnected or ignored. For example Kusari receives a lot of characterization from Tenshou and vice-versa, yet I could easily replace Tenshou with Mokou or Youki, however in doing so I create the "with and without" situation that would not happen if I use Tenshou, as Tenshou can not function as a complex character without Kusari and vice-versa.
So, while I don't think we should switch to Project polls as that would just take forever and be prolonged indefinitely for one person, I do think we should at least encourage people to build their characters without canon characters in mind.
At first, I thought you were contradicting yourself, asserting at times that using other characters to develop your own is a good thing, other times implying the opposite. But, I suppose, it's really how you use other existing characters? No character exists in isolation, after all. And plots sort of rely on characters interacting.
But to make a character that's discussion-worthy, your best bet would likely be to have a plot they're connected to. Putting them in a plot leads to the inevitable question of how they interact with different kinds of characters, with each interaction potentially revealing another thing about the character in question. Ever notice how for just about every character, someone's asked "what if they met X?"
So, in short... I might be sort of agreeing a bit? Possibly sort of disagreeing on some other bit? I'm not sure.
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Ah yes thank you, that was my point, and yes that was also Duranzo I was referring to not you, and now that you actually clarified your idea I think that would be better as well, like I said with LYS making a large project that casts an umbrella over everyone's ideas without restricting them to limitations would give more cohesiveness to the stories and give more ideas for character interactions for people, when Duranzo said he had ideas for interaction between Adela and some of my characters I was really excited to see what the interaction would hold for both sides, and things like that are what we should post to drive conversation, within reasonable bounds of course
Maybe multi-media the thread a little. We already have some artwork going on, which is neat. But maybe people could write stories about the characters we discuss.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersNew proposal: we start the new thread with the characters we're waiting on now. (I think there's like two or three of them, right?) All at once - the creators can PM Ruki or whoever takes charge of the new thread when they're ready.
Thereafter, we follow a simpler format, where you can post a character as long as you do so with a substantial comment on someone else's character. (Or even groups, if you comment on more than one?) It might be rough at first for people who don't find the first batch compelling, but hopefully it will become easier once things get rolling. If the new format works, I will ask that participants be on the lookout for characters who are languishing, unloved.
Also, I would encourage reposting of characters you put up here, with refinements and additions based on the feedback you got. That way we get to see better versions of familiar faces and we don't have to worry when this thread finally fades into oblivion.
Thoughts? Refinements? Despair?
EDIT: I realize that this isn't really a "new" proposal, but I figured I'd give the thread a kick in the rear and see what you all think.
edited 24th Feb '11 7:01:06 PM by Durazno
I know... it might fail horribly. My main hope, though is that it will keep people from getting frozen out like they were here. Also, it might help to build more interconnections between the characters, just because there will be so many more to see.
Of course, if this does result in a profusion of characters (as I'm hoping it would), we might have to ask contributors to maintain their own lists. That is, instead of listing every single character, the top post would have a list going, "Kyler's Characters," "Chagen's Characters," "Ruki's Characters", linking to their debut posts.
If the contributors feel like it, the debut posts could include a description of their Gensokyo, which would probably be important for understanding how their characters fit into it.
EDIT: Come to think of it, you might feel ambivalent about the setup because it could result in people making careless, desultory contributions just so that they can shovel their characters out.
edited 24th Feb '11 8:33:15 PM by Durazno
Basically why we have the polling system in the first place, otherwise we get swamped and we go nowhere at all.
I think a problem that needs to be addressed is A) Better Characters with Better Connections and B) More outlines and standards.
I've already stated my point on A, but for B what I mean is like don't let the poll go dead for five days and then call for the next character, or worse let it go dead then bring it back for like one hour of activity and then let more days go by, we should at least a rule for how long conversation can stay idle like 3 days with the weekends and holidays counting for half days or something.
And while not something which should be 100% necessary, encourage making and fully developing at least 3 other characters outside of the canon ones directly connected to the character you submit, they don't have to be named or mentioned in the profiles just something to keep in mind.
Quality not Quantity.
Regarding point A... well, we're all doing our best to come up with interesting characters. Unless you know of a magical creativity serum?
But... I'm going to have to disagree with the other part. The 3 other characters outside of canon part. While it's a viable idea for some, I don't even want to push that as something encouraged. We're making Touhou OC's, after all, they still live in Gensokyo.
If anything, the problem is less using canon characters as a characterization crutch, and more of the OC's not being meaningfully related to anyone else at all.
What I'm saying is, encourage people to connect the OC with other characters, and if they happen to be canon characters, so be it.
/twocents
This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...See, I don't think there are enough of us to swamp a thread at the moment, and that won't be a problem until we get some more people sharing. And the easiest way to get people sharing is to actually let them share, instead of having them submit a three-sentence pitch every couple weeks and get rejected. It looks to me like the poll format has withered this thread away, and I don't see how we could improve it enough to fix that.
And if we do try to fix it by simply jumping to the next character faster, then it won't be any better than getting swamped. We'll still end up with a whole ton of undiscussed characters, we'll just be picking them up one at a time.
I agree with Kyler about connections. If somebody makes a character intended to be dropped into the Moriya Shrine or serve as a rival to Shou or whatever, I think that's just fine. In fact, depending on the character, it may even be better. Did the fact that my Wu hated Sen Nakano, who none of you have even met, do a single thing for her as a character? Besides, the whole point of this thread is to help improve them, anyway, and part of that could be figuring out what kind of a cast they need.
Aside: one thing we might want to include in a new format is what the character's actually for. Is she a stage boss? A backstory element? A villain for a fanfiction or comic? Undecided?
edited 24th Feb '11 9:42:11 PM by Durazno
That's an interesting idea. Just a quick survey, how is everyone else designing their characters? I tend to design them primarily as stage bosses, as you can guess with my fondness for spellcard design. Writing for Yukine was incredibly fun, for me.
edited 24th Feb '11 9:52:44 PM by KylerThatch
This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...I design them completely independently from the idea of stages.
This is mainly because everyone in Ea CM pretty much reaches the power of a stage 600 boss anyway.
"Who wants to hear about good stuff when the bottom of the abyss of human failure that you know doesn't exist is so much greater?"-WraithI come up with a gag, flesh out the gag somewhat, enter it for laughs and then get alarmed when it ties enough that I have to make a profile.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI hover between making them for games and stories. Games because they feel more like Touhou characters if they have a stage number and some spellcards to their name and stories because they'll probably never be in games.
Generally, I'll make a character or two for their own sake, then decide where they'd fall in a hypothetical game and make some more characters to fit in around them.
PS - I'm amazed you didn't think we'd leap at a youkai of frills, Bocaj. I'm hoping the thread continues in some form so that we can surprise you again!
edited 24th Feb '11 10:34:22 PM by Durazno
I think we should pull away from the extras, we give descriptions, spellcards, stages, gimmicks but there's a lack of meat when it comes to the actual character, while the extras are all well and good I think we should focus on those less and more on the actual content of the characters.
Besides Koishi and her Freudian card the cast of Touhou is not primarily remembered for their spellcards or stages or even their powers, they're remembered for their music, appearances, and interactions with the other characters, even Yukari is known more for her personality and appearance then even her spell cards or even her gap power; switch her and the Aki Sisters' powers and Yukari will still be more interesting.
And that's what I meant by something to think about, not something that should be explicitly required. It's not like the story should be completely devoid of canon, the setting like the SDM and Sanzu etc. should still be used but the major characters should still be of your own creation.
This is because it forces you to actually build characterization from the ground up, it means that you'll have to make and fully develop other characters if you actually want the story to be good, and it gives more interest to your profile and more characters to submit later on. Like if you mention a struggle against another it's like "Ohh, interesting, what's that character like?" so for the next poll you can submit the opposing force, developing both your own story, the previous character, and giving us more characters to discuss.
And also, music and appearances can't always be provided by everyone beyond descriptions, which help but don't really solidify what they are, hence why building characterization and the character itself is always a good thing as it's a guarantee.
And I'm not saying just get better, I'm saying there should be more structure and time put into the characters so we don't end up with a dead thread every other poll, thinking up a situation with your own characters should not be a requirement, just something to think about and to help you if you're out of ideas.

I'm sort of tempted by the idea of a system without polling where, after two or three randomly-chosen characters go up, you can post any character you want so long as you also make a substantial comment on someone else's character. (And maybe observe a cool-down after you post yours.)