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Are we putting Character Alignments on too many pages?

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Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Nov 8th 2010 at 8:49:21 PM

Do you think too many peopel are putting Dungeons And Dragons Character alignments where they don't belong?

I don't think Gary Gygax intended Alignments to be used on Happy Tree Friends characters for example.

While I can understand putting down some characters such as comicbook super heroes like Batman and the Joker down for alignments, do kids shows really need to have all their characters put in alignments?

Also I feel that Tvtropes has encouraged a lot of Alignment decay and that many people are misunderstanding the Alignments. I've had to explain to a few people that a Lawful alignment does not mean most good and Chaotic does not mean most evil in Dn D.

edited 8th Nov '10 8:50:05 PM by Monsund

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#2: Nov 8th 2010 at 9:31:36 PM

Yes. If it's not explicitly confirmed to use the Dn D Character Alignment chart, it shouldn't be on the page. Feel free to cut any such examples with that reason.

Fight smart, not fair.
Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#3: Nov 9th 2010 at 1:29:55 AM

I've seen a few debates about this pop-up. Mostly about if character X is Good/Neutral/Evil and rationalising why they are right and people who disagree are wrong.

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#4: Nov 9th 2010 at 1:32:18 AM

That's why they're not supposed to be on the page.

Fight smart, not fair.
Tyoria Since: Jul, 2009
#5: Nov 9th 2010 at 3:17:23 AM

GOD yes. Prior to TV Tropes, I didn't know much about D&D but thought alignment was kinda neat. Now I think of it as THE most obnoxiously overused shoehorn on the entire site — it even beats out the Five-Man Band in terms of meaningless ubiquity (because, of course, EVERY show with at least five people must somehow conform to that standard). The Order Versus Chaos axis in particular does little BUT breed disputes on character sheets. The ideas are really so broad they could fit any number of mutually-exclusive types, so they are completely meaningless in describing most characters who aren't strictly two-dimensional, which means it's ultimately a lot of attention paid to something that actually doesn't help a person unfamiliar with a series get the idea of what's going on at ALL. I'd love to see it go away, but it doesn't seem likely to happen. Unfortunately.

eX 94. Grandmaster of Shark Since: Jan, 2001
94. Grandmaster of Shark
#6: Nov 9th 2010 at 3:23:47 AM

I say if it doesn't spawn any controversy, or the work in question is DnD/roleplaying related, let it stay. Otherwise, it isn't really necessary, we have enough own tropes that describe a character's morality .

edited 9th Nov '10 3:24:36 AM by eX

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#7: Nov 9th 2010 at 3:26:36 AM

Certain characters I can see them on their Character Sheet s if it fits them to a tee. like Haruna from Negima

  • Chaotic Neutral: The "does whatever the hell she likes" type.
    • Token Chaotic Neutral Teammate: Seriously, some of the bad guys come off as less evil than her. The fully illustrated torture scene for Nodoka and Yue not telling her about magic? Ooookay...

edited 9th Nov '10 3:32:04 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Tyoria Since: Jul, 2009
#8: Nov 9th 2010 at 4:00:53 AM

^-I'm not at all familiar with the series in question, so this may be out of line (in which case I apologize ahead of time), but your description sounds much like what I have heard as the misuse of the Chaotic Neutral alignment — as, essentially, the go-to for players who don't want to be constrained in any way but can't be evil because there's a paladin in the party. So that which would normally be called EVIL is suddenly called CHAOS. What's so "chaotic" about TORTURE?

suedenim Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl from Jet Dream HQ Since: Oct, 2009
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
#9: Nov 9th 2010 at 5:12:32 AM

Should these things go to the YMMV tab, or just get cut outright?

Jet-a-Reeno!
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#10: Nov 9th 2010 at 5:47:09 AM

They are not YMMV though they fit very well listing them on character pages.

Soon not a single trope will be on works pages because we keep removing them at the drop of a hat. (So many tropes have been labled this that IMO shouldn't of been and they are tough to find now.) Removing them from the works pages removes any chance that people might see that this trope even might be connected to it which makes works pages useless. Or a tab for works pages where these can be listed... instead of having a warning saying "do not list" say "list in _____".

End Rant

[up][up] It was drawn up on a manga page (made to look like a real page of the manga) showing what she should of done since they kept her out of the loop. She just follows the fun or follows the insanity.

edited 9th Nov '10 6:18:38 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#11: Nov 9th 2010 at 6:22:22 AM

We haven't really moved that many tropes to the tabs. It's that the ones we did move are very popular for people to put on any page they can. Which is part of the reason they were moved to the tabs in the first place.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#12: Nov 9th 2010 at 6:29:21 AM

Yeah but a YMMV tab will let people see what YMMV tropes that are connected to the work while keeping it off the main page. Right now the only way to find them right now is to go though the Wicks by hand and try and find them right?

Personally though I think all trope namespaces like Mahou Sensei Negima should get tabs because they can be hard as hell to find, but that's just me.

edited 9th Nov '10 6:35:17 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#13: Nov 9th 2010 at 6:42:48 AM

We open one Character Alignment thread per month, approximately. It's kind of funny, almost like a Running Gag of TV Tropes.

They are subjective and based in a demonstrably flawed game system mechanic that cannot realistically apply outside of works based on that system, and causes endless debate even within that system. People are not cutouts on a 9-square grid. Moreover, as the flame wars over alignments demonstrate, people can't even agree on so-called "archetypal" characters, much less the more complex ones.

This is not a "take the fun out of the wiki" situation. This is a "cut out the potential for endless Flame Wars" situation, because people demonstrably cannot stop wanking off over these types of subjective tropes. Just look at the Miko and Belkar arguments on Order Of The Stick if you don't appreciate this.

In short, cut all references to Character Alignment except where the work/system is explicitly based on D&D or alignments are established in Canon or by Word of God.

edited 9th Nov '10 6:44:24 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#14: Nov 9th 2010 at 7:24:55 AM

Running on insanity is not Chaotic Neutral. Your explanation further proves she's been badly shoehorned in. Chaotic Neutral characters are not crazy. They tend to be selfish. They often have little or no regard for laws. They don't care about good or evil and they're just out for themselves. She doesn't sound like that at all.

edited 9th Nov '10 7:26:19 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#15: Nov 9th 2010 at 7:40:22 AM

Well she draws adult manga even though she herself is underage, brings a 10 year old to comiket just to see his reaction and to sell her new book and somehow got her hands on a $150,000 airship in like 3 weeks time alone in the magic world and was planning on using a party with lots of bigwigs to make contacts so she can one day Rule the magic world but is still helps Negi out for her own advancement or other reasons. And kissed her best friends love interest just cause she wanted magic.

Anyways I am butchering this so I will stop and go to sleep...

A YMMV namespace / Works tab though would still be nice for my above reasons, should I take that into another thread?

edited 9th Nov '10 7:49:18 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#16: Nov 9th 2010 at 7:47:42 AM

It's already been under discussion. The YMMV namespace exists and shows up if you create it for a work, but it doesn't have a "default" tab in the same way as Discussion, Crowning Moment, etc. Definitely something we should consider having.

I still firmly believe that Character Alignment should not be listed even on YMMV. It's a false system of classification. It should be a Just for Fun, not a real trope.

edited 9th Nov '10 7:48:23 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#17: Nov 9th 2010 at 7:56:29 AM

[up] I can see that although a few of them I think could be standalone tropes

Chaotic Good Chaotic Neutral and Lawful Neutral come to mind that have elements of full on tropes.

edited 9th Nov '10 7:57:46 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#18: Nov 9th 2010 at 7:57:18 AM

Do we think we should lock Alignment pages? I'm going to start deleting Alignments from shows that don't work with them such as the aforementioned Happy Tree Friends.

edited 9th Nov '10 7:58:54 AM by Monsund

billybobfred Cosine! from renamed to wingedcatgirl Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#19: Nov 9th 2010 at 8:09:08 AM

Just look at the Miko and Belkar arguments on Order Of The Stick if you don't appreciate this.
And those are set in stone by Word of God. Imagine the flamewars over the 99% of characters whose creators don't care about D&D and never give them an official alignment at all.

she her hers hOI!!! i'm tempe
carla Since: Jan, 2010
#20: Nov 9th 2010 at 8:19:37 AM

i vote for Kill It with Fire, myself. cut it out completely for all works where the D&D alignment doesn't apply. i don't mind leaving it in the YMMV tab, but honestly, trying to shoehorn characters into categories that barely describe them is pushing YMMV too far, IMO. the Character Alignment tropes tell me nothing i can't learn from other tropes (which are more specific and/or detailed).

suedenim Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl from Jet Dream HQ Since: Oct, 2009
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
#21: Nov 9th 2010 at 8:33:16 AM

Personally, I've been shunting them off into YMMV, and if anyone feels like curating YMMV pages for works, well, lotsa luck, first of all, but I figure they can deal with the alignment stuff as they see fit.

edited 9th Nov '10 8:33:31 AM by suedenim

Jet-a-Reeno!
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#22: Nov 9th 2010 at 8:47:18 AM

We shouldn't scrap it just because the show does not specifically state character alignments; if the show mentions concepts similar enough to such character alignments (ie. how good vs. evil or how lawful vs. unlawful various characters are, as well as their philosophies on the connections between order and morality) then Character Alignment should go in the YMMV tab of a work. But it should not be scrapped.

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#23: Nov 9th 2010 at 10:29:27 AM

Put it in YMMV.

If there's an interview in which the creator explicity says he intended for Mr. Honest But Evil Shopkeeper to be Lawful Evil then I see no problem with listing it on the main page.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#24: Nov 11th 2010 at 2:51:14 PM

I think Word of God is a solid criteria (Vin Diesel has all but stated that Riddick is Chaotic Neutral, and being a D&D fan it isn't a big surprise). But any other example should be discussed, as characters in regular fiction aren't fixed to D&D rules. Some do fit the criteria, or at the least some of their motivation can be explained by character alignment.

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#25: Nov 11th 2010 at 5:07:45 PM

^ Except that the mainpage is not for discussion, which such entries encourage. Death of the Author believers notwithstanding, Word of God is generally seen as official, and thus acceptable on the main page. Beyond that, it's subjective so shouldn't be there.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

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