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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#24676: Aug 11th 2023 at 1:08:21 PM

...Only for it to turn around and say "We're no different!" within seconds of each other.

I talked about this already. No one is arguing that there aren't any genetic differences between Naturals and Coordinators, because genetic differences is what makes someone a Coordinator. The claim being made here is that there is no moral difference between Naturals and Coordinators. Neither group is inherently evil. Both groups deserve the chance to live peaceful lives without being exterminated or oppressed by the other. This point is so blisteringly obvious that I have a hard time believing that you could be genuinely confused about it.

No? It sidesteps the issue entirely.

What do you think the issue is? I've spelled out my view: the issue is "well, Coordinators exist now and they're objectively smarter/faster/stronger/etc than Naturals. What do we do about that?". Blue Cosmos says "destroy all Coordinators for violating the natural order", Patrick Zala and friends say "destroy all Naturals for being obsolete and standing in the way of the Coordinator-driven future" and Kira, Lacus, et al (who the narrative presents as being in the right on this point) say "what the fuck is wrong with you? you don't need to do anything, just let people live their lives, damn." In what way is that not addressing the issue?

It's even shown that coordinators are able to be even smarter as children than even the smartest naturals

You're getting basic facts wrong again, which Ranger Jack already pointed out. But on the broader point, the way it's presented, Coordinators seem to be more "guaranteed above average within human range" than "beyond what Naturals can ever attain". As noted, we see Rau le Creuset — a Natural — rise through the ranks to become one of ZAFT's best and brightest. Nor does ZAFT seem to have a massive technological advantage over OMNI — ZAFT invented mobile suits and n-jammers, which gave them a huge advantage early on, but OMNI invented phase shift armor, mobile suit-useable beam weapons, transformable mobile suits, mirage colloid, and striker packs — all of which ZAFT stole and reverse engineered to use for themselves, rather than just inventing a counter with their giant Coordinator brains.

Remember, the coordinators' genetic advantages were the reason the Alliance were losing at the beginning of the Bloody Valentine War.

No they weren't. ZAFT is winning the war at the start of the series because of two things. One is mobile suits paired with n-jammer technology, which threw off most of OMNI's existing tactics and allowed ZAFT to make massive gains virtually unopposed while OMNI struggled to adapt. The second is the fact that ZAFT launched a massive and indiscriminate attack on Earth at large, killing tens of millions of people and throwing the planet into chaos, which both sapped OMNI's resources and made it harder to put in the work necessary to find and deploy counters to ZAFT.

That part of the backstory is ripped straight from Mobile Suit Gundam. It's literally the exact same thing that Zeon did to the Federation — and Zeon definitely weren't genetic ubermenschen.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24677: Aug 11th 2023 at 1:38:28 PM

> No one is arguing that there aren't any genetic differences between Naturals and Coordinators, because genetic differences is what makes someone a Coordinator. The claim being made here is that there is no moral difference between Naturals and Coordinators.

I already told you, that's basically just Zala. Everyone else in ZAFT's motivations for racism come down to thinking they're just genetically better. Which they textually are.

> I've spelled out my view: the issue is "well, Coordinators exist now and they're objectively smarter/faster/stronger/etc than Naturals. What do we do about that?". Blue Cosmos says "destroy all Coordinators for violating the natural order", Patrick Zala and friends say "destroy all Naturals for being obsolete and standing in the way of the Coordinator-driven future" and Kira, Lacus, et al (who the narrative presents as being in the right on this point) say "what the fuck is wrong with you? you don't need to do anything, just let people live their lives, damn."

Again, I already answered this. The core point from every non-Patrick Zala character in ZAFT who isn't a good guy is "We are genetically better than naturals, so that means we can do what we want". The core assumption that underpins the ideology is objectively correct, which is really fucking sus, especially as Fukuda would go on to make Cross Ange. Like I said, the only thing Kira & co. take issue with is that ZAFT is being dicks about their supremacist ideology while simultaneously claiming to oppose it despite all the evidence to the contrary. You're cherry-picking my statements.

>You're getting basic facts wrong again

I am not.

>As noted, we see Rau le Creuset — a Natural — rise through the ranks to become one of ZAFT's best and brightest.

Okay, so that's him, a clone of him, the son of the guy he himself was a clone of, and the princess of a tiny nation in the South Pacific. Basically meaning the only naturals who can do shit are either the dynasty of one guy (all of whom being literal Newtypes, btw) or the sister of the messiah himself, who is a coordinator.

>but OMNI invented phase shift armor, mobile suit-useable beam weapons, transformable mobile suits, mirage colloid, and striker packs

...Which they only got from reverse-engineering ZAFT tech.

>No they weren't. ZAFT is winning the war at the start of the series because of two things. One is mobile suits paired with n-jammer technology, which threw off most of OMNI's existing tactics and allowed ZAFT to make massive gains virtually unopposed while OMNI struggled to adapt.

The biggest issue for the Alliance to overcome was ZAFT's use of the first MS models, which can only be piloted by coordinators due to the sheer amount of information one needs to be able to process all at once, which naturals just can't. It takes until the Strike enters mass-production that the first Natural-friendly Mobile Suits: the Strike Dagger becomes a thing.

>That part of the backstory is ripped straight from Mobile Suit Gundam. It's literally the exact same thing that Zeon did to the Federation — and Zeon definitely weren't genetic ubermenschen.

Because they aren't genetically-engineered designer babies. They were just regular guys living in space. At most, there's the bullshit surrounding Full Frontal, but and the other literal Char Clone candidates were a very special case.

I'm here, I guess.
RangerJackWalker Since: Sep, 2010
#24678: Aug 11th 2023 at 3:10:42 PM

The core point from every non-Patrick Zala character in ZAFT who isn't a good guy is "We are genetically better than naturals, so that means we can do what we want". The core assumption that underpins the ideology is objectively correct, which is really fucking sus

Not sure how this matters. Just because someone is faster/stronger/smarter don’t mean they get to do whatever they want at the expense of others. The ‘core assumption’ doesn’t matter.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#24679: Aug 11th 2023 at 4:14:58 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24680: Aug 11th 2023 at 9:08:08 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
I'm here, I guess.
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#24681: Aug 15th 2023 at 8:25:27 AM

So, watching the Origin: Doan's Island movie on Gundaminfo on Youtube.

I... really think they missed a trick by not casting Kazuma Kiryu's VA as Doan. The man is basically OYW Kazuma Kiryu and it would be such a good fit and a nice Casting Gag.

Also, so far, the movie seems to be a nice little advertisement for communism. Which... is interesting.

Edited by Larkmarn on Aug 15th 2023 at 11:33:05 AM

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#24682: Aug 17th 2023 at 3:32:58 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a
#24683: Aug 17th 2023 at 4:12:27 AM

What is going on here?

Are explosions science?
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#24684: Aug 17th 2023 at 5:17:53 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a
#24685: Aug 17th 2023 at 7:40:31 AM

I saw that and it was real tiring. But what about Lord Yam?

Are explosions science?
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24686: Aug 17th 2023 at 7:44:20 AM

[up][up]I didn't just "disregard" them, I pointed out how they don't hold up to scrutiny, they got mad and made things personal and I ended it there before my reply calling an end to it was thumped.

As for what Lord Yam said, I dunno. They got thumped before I got saw it. All I know is that they D Med me because I apparently pissed them off that much.

Edited by Hawkatana on Aug 18th 2023 at 12:47:59 AM

I'm here, I guess.
MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a
#24687: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:10:30 AM

Right, well back to the topic at hand then.

So was the last Gunpla of the HGUC line the Shenlong Gundam? That's where the wiki's tables end, at least.

Are explosions science?
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#24688: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:14:29 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#24689: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:15:30 AM

I've noticed that a lot of the criticisms against Seed in General and Kira in particular tend to actively misrepresent plot points or leave out key details (Shinn going to the dark side was ENTIRELY in character, but a lot of the emo edge lords didn't want to admit it so they claimed Kira stole the show).

Others just want Nineties Anti Heroes who just kill with no regard.

Edited by LordYAM on Aug 17th 2023 at 8:18:19 AM

Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24690: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:21:35 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
I'm here, I guess.
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#24691: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:23:55 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24692: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:28:02 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
I'm here, I guess.
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#24693: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:30:27 AM

This argument is over. If someone is being uncivil or unproductive, you should just holler instead of engaging with them.

Macron's notes
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24694: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:30:46 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
I'm here, I guess.
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#24695: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:34:10 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24696: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:40:01 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
I'm here, I guess.
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#24697: Aug 17th 2023 at 8:40:25 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
Xorn15 Nurse Mordred Attending from R&D Platform, Seychelles Waters Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Nurse Mordred Attending
#24698: Aug 17th 2023 at 9:48:25 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24699: Aug 17th 2023 at 9:50:59 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
I'm here, I guess.
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#24700: Aug 17th 2023 at 10:20:19 AM

When I said don't engage with the topic, I meant it. There's no excuse to bring up again. Mods are here to de-escalate the situation so there's no need for you to post about it again. Several thumps and a suspension was issued nothing else about this issue needs to be said. Let's switch to another topic

Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 17th 2023 at 1:23:01 PM

Macron's notes

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