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NativeJovian from Orlando, FL
Jul 6th 2021 at 1:14:18 PM

the Earth Federation government is a bunch of corrupt assholes who caused the material conditions that keep leading to these massive wars

I mean... I guess I can't say that's wrong? But it feels weird to pin the blame entire on the Federation without mentioning all the colony dropping and nerve gassing that various flavors of Zeon did when it comes to the socioeconomic state of the Earth Sphere in the UC 0100s.

Hathaway is doing this because of his feelings on Char's Counterattack (and Quess)

This sentence doing a lot of work here. What are Hathaway's feelings on CCA and Quess? Does he blame Char for manipulating Quess and then sending her into battle as a pawn? Does he think the situation is his fault personally, and if he hadn't screwed up she wouldn't have been killed? Does he put the blame less on specific actions of individuals and more on broad, impersonal forces of inequality and corruption?

He seems to have adopted a lot of Char's rhetoric about "Federation bad, Earth good, everyone should live in space", which feels weird. Does he think Char was right? Is his big regret that he didn't go with Quess to join Char's rebellion when she did, rather than that he failed to save her from Char's schemes? Or does he think that Char was right in principle but took things too far, and he wants the same outcome but without the mass murder?

Kenneth is a military commander who doesn't really like the Earth Federation

I have no idea what Kenneth's feelings are about anything other than Gigi (who he wants to have sex with). Where do you get the impression that he doesn't like the Federation? He seems perfectly happy to enjoy the privileges of rank, from fancy shuttle rides to near-unquestioned authority over his area of command. He doesn't display any disdain toward the Federation bigwigs (even when they're being anywhere between entirely useless and actively detrimental to their own safety), but he doesn't seem to harbor any personal ill-will towards Mafty either, despite recognizing them as terrorists. He never talks about how the new assignment will let him claim the glory of defeating Mafty and lead to further promotion so he doesn't seem to be a social climber sort, and he's entirely happy to resort to evil and underhanded tactics without any thought for his reputation, so he's not an honorable warrior or a consummate professional soldier, either.

tldr, even after like an hour's worth of screentime, I still have no idea what his deal is.

Gigi's not really important to the Earth Federation vs Mafty plot, but is part of a running theme of rich / powerful older men exploiting young women (like the man and woman in the hotel in the elevator when Mafty attacks)

Gigi gets way too much screen time to just be a throwaway reference to Federation bigwigs keeping mistresses. But we know nothing about her state of mind. How does she feel about her situation? Is she grateful for the opportunity to escape from crushing poverty? (Did she escape from crushing poverty in the first place?) Is she proud of her ability to seduce powerful men that (presumably) have the pick of any woman they want? Is she worried about the future, when she'll inevitably lose her patron either because he dies of old age or tires of her and replaces her? Is she filled with ennui, finding no emotional satisfaction with her patron but unable to seek other relationships for fear of angering him?

All of these are interesting angles that could be explored. But none of them are. So instead Gigi comes off as a bad fanfic character written so that she can be the girlfriend of the author's self-insert OC. She's stunningly beautiful and sexually available, so everyone is attracted to her, but she's also smart and observant and discerning so she shoots everyone down with her cutting wit. Oh, but she finds the main character intriguing because he's so complex and mature compared to those other guys who have nothing to offer but money and power and social status. Because of course.

Vos iustus a diversis genus delirus.
MightyKombat And? And? And? And? AND? from New PC Land
And? And? And? And? AND?
Jul 6th 2021 at 1:45:37 PM

I mean, ignoring Zeon's war crimes and atrocities is sadly par for the fuckin course with most recent UC works.

I'm quite confident in my shitposting you know
Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Jul 6th 2021 at 1:50:13 PM

I mean. It's not even really "recent." In rewatching the original trilogy as it came to Netflix, the opening narration absolutely both-sideses the conflict. The famous line about how "both sides lost half their respective populations" makes it sound like casualties were equal but it ignores the fact that A: a significant chunk of Zeon's losses were due to them massacring their own citizens and B: the Federation has a substantially larger population.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
MightyKombat And? And? And? And? AND? from New PC Land
And? And? And? And? AND?
Jul 6th 2021 at 1:56:24 PM

True. Its too bad this film is yet another fucking reminder of that and is continuing the trend because heaven forbid if UC authors that aren't Tomino dare to criticise space-fascism.

Edited by MightyKombat on Jul 6th 2021 at 9:56:31 AM

I'm quite confident in my shitposting you know
Beatman1 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
Jul 6th 2021 at 1:59:10 PM

[up]I still think the script Brian K. Vaughan cooks up for Legendary will do just thatÖand garner a ton of controversy in the process.

NativeJovian from Orlando, FL
Jul 6th 2021 at 2:57:42 PM

[up][up][up]That line is actually somewhat infamously poorly translated. The sides it's referring to are Earth and space, not the Federation and Zeon.

The vast majority of the spacenoid population at the start of the One Year War lived in Sides 1-6. Sides 1, 2, and 4 were gassed; Side 5 was completely destroyed in the crossfire of the Battle of Loum; Sides 3 and 6 were untouched. So basically, for half of the spacenoid population to have died, you have to assume two thirds of people in the gassed Sides were killed. Possibly more if Side 3 (which is sometimes said to have been made up of closed-type colonies with no window panels) had a larger population than the other Sides.

Vos iustus a diversis genus delirus.
ashlay Om Mani Padme Hm
Om Mani Padme Hm
Jul 6th 2021 at 3:06:09 PM

Shrug, the Zabis (Except maybe Mineva? I'm honestly not sure how I feel about her at this point without seeing more of what happens to side 3), Haman, and to some degree even Char can burn in Hell (Cosmo Babylonia, Jupiter Empire, Zanscare, etc. can burn in Hell too). They're part of the same upper class that makes up the worst elements of the Earth Federation, removing economic and political power from the general populous and exploiting their desperateness for their own ends.

But that's the fundamental tragedy of Gundam right? Getting in the big death robot and blowing up one of the two competing power structures isn't going to fix the material issues with the Earth Sphere that lets rich assholes set themselves up as space fascists because the population of the colonies are exploited and abused under the current system.

slimcoder King Shark is a Shark
King Shark is a Shark
Jul 6th 2021 at 3:07:39 PM

Iím reminded of how in Star Wars the Confederacy was formed via corporations taking advantage of people with legitimate grievances towards the Republic for their own gains.

"It's been an honor to fight by your side."
MightyKombat And? And? And? And? AND? from New PC Land
And? And? And? And? AND?
Jul 6th 2021 at 3:11:05 PM

At least there was the excuse that both the Republic and CIS people were manipulated by a loony space wizard in a bid for ultimate power.

I'm quite confident in my shitposting you know
Jul 6th 2021 at 3:20:13 PM

Tyrants exploiting fearmongering and capatilists to gain power isnít new. So if anything Palps is just doing corrupt politician 101.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Jul 6th 2021 at 4:36:27 PM

True. Its too bad this film is yet another fucking reminder of that and is continuing the trend because heaven forbid if UC authors that aren't Tomino dare to criticise space-fascism.

It's an adaptation of a novel by Tomino himself, who made it pretty clear throughout his works that he never really saw fascism as a team sport - it's a political tendency that any government can fall victim to, and the nominal foes of fascism are not necessarily the good guys just because they say they are.

Zeon is irrelevant in Hathaway because Zeon is defeated and gone, leaving the pre-existing corruption and authoritarianism (as demonstrated in Zeta, ZZ, and CCA) of the Federation without a meaningful counterbalance. It doesn't actually matter who kicked the whole mess off, only that the people in charge no longer have any sense of moral or social responsibility.

He seems to have adopted a lot of Char's rhetoric about "Federation bad, Earth good, everyone should live in space", which feels weird. Does he think Char was right? Is his big regret that he didn't go with Quess to join Char's rebellion when she did, rather than that he failed to save her from Char's schemes? Or does he think that Char was right in principle but took things too far, and he wants the same outcome but without the mass murder?

Hathaway was raised in the AEUG/Karaba, which Char's version of Neo Zeon was only ever a radicalised spinoff of. 'Federation bad, Earth good, people should live in space' was the orthodox stance of the movement, with the only debate being over how this should be accomplished and how urgent a priority it was. I mean, they were literally called the Anti-Earth Union Group, and were made up of rogue Federation and Zeon personnel acting as the resistance against a hostile, repressive occupying force. They were never super-friendly to the Feddies.

Edited by Iaculus on Jul 6th 2021 at 11:43:52 AM

What's precedent ever done for us?
Jul 6th 2021 at 4:58:57 PM

Jokes on them mankind will never leave earth for good, and the spacenoids will continue their own petty feuds over it because nothing about them fundamentally changed for all their grandstanding.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Jul 6th 2021 at 5:06:58 PM

That said, the spaceborne civilisations in Victory and G-Reco do seem to be in significantly better shape than the ones on Earth (no cannibalism, for a start), so a persistent political movement to get people to leave the planet was at least useful for preserving human society once everything finally went to shit.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Jul 6th 2021 at 5:36:43 PM

Or, as Iím more willing to bet, Full Frontals ideal society didnít work as planned and eventually the people of earth eventually got fed up with the control of the spacenoids, who oversaw such environment that an entire race of people were made for being food for generations.

As that one man points out, the reality is for those who donít have the luxuries to move thereís no feasible reason to leave. Which is the actual reality for how these things go. Those who can leave earth are those who have the resources and privileges to do so, after all. So bombing the federation doesnít change that reality since the rich arenít going to help them no matter how many of themselves get blown up, and when things are fucked they leave the poor to suffer the consequences.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 6th 2021 at 5:38:39 AM

ashlay Om Mani Padme Hm
Om Mani Padme Hm
Jul 6th 2021 at 5:41:25 PM

[up]x4 I mean the germ of the idea that is Gundam is Tomino thinking to himself after reading a Gerard K. O'Neill book that moving into space colonies will not solve societal issues, just exacerbate them, so yeah.

That having been said Char and Hathaway as well seem pretty clear on the fact they're only trying to fix things for the moment by dismantling as much of the corrupt Earth Federation as they can, so those who come after them have an easier time of deciding what changes need to come next, rather than fixing things for good. That's why they both just laugh at Quess and Gigi respectively telling them they should be the god / kings of the Earth Sphere.

Edited by ashlay on Jul 6th 2021 at 10:36:54 AM

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Jul 6th 2021 at 5:54:08 PM

Or, as Iím more willing to bet, Full Frontals ideal society didnít work as planned and eventually the people of earth eventually got fed up with the control of the spacenoids, who oversaw such environment that an entire race of people were made for being food for generations.

G-Reco is based around Earth having been a mostly-grateful charity-case for a stable, prosperous spaceborne civilisation (the Venus Globe) for so long that the details of the arrangement's origin have slipped into legend. Fair bet that whatever happened at the end of the Universal Century wasn't the spacenoids' fault, especially given how long the people of that era can hold a grudge.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Jul 6th 2021 at 6:41:18 PM

Considering the track record with Zeon and Char I highly doubt it, especially as by the end of the show they were repeating old feuds from Universal Century and Towasangas plan was to invade earth to take it for themselves.

Even the colonies from Universal Century were ravaged just like earth was, which is why they eventually made new colonies, so it likely went both ways. Towasanga were likewise part of the control Venus Globe had over photon batteries.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 6th 2021 at 6:42:40 AM

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Jul 6th 2021 at 7:11:09 PM

This assumes that things going wrong in the UC is always, inevitably due to spacenoids starting shit, which is missing the point in a big way. There's a reason the direct sequel to the original show had the protagonists lead a rebellion against the Federation with the aid of their old enemies.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Jul 6th 2021 at 7:15:32 PM

It was likely a mutual thing where the escalation and radicalization likely lead to both destroying each other, since Venus Globe set it up so both sides were dependent on them for Photon Batteries to prevent such escalation later.

NativeJovian from Orlando, FL
Jul 6th 2021 at 11:42:43 PM

Hathaway was raised in the AEUG/Karaba, which Char's version of Neo Zeon was only ever a radicalised spinoff of. 'Federation bad, Earth good, people should live in space' was the orthodox stance of the movement, with the only debate being over how this should be accomplished and how urgent a priority it was. I mean, they were literally called the Anti-Earth Union Group, and were made up of rogue Federation and Zeon personnel acting as the resistance against a hostile, repressive occupying force. They were never super-friendly to the Feddies.

I don't really think this is accurate. The AEUG is made up almost entirely of EFF defectors, whose beef is explicitly with the Titans, not the Federation as a whole. It's not a coincidence that their endgame is getting the Federation Assembly on their side. The AEUG does not want to tear down the Federation and replace it with something better. They want to stop the Titans from secretly committing mass murder and plotting to overthrow the democratic Federation government.

Char is pretty much the sole exception there. He's the only one who ever talks about humanity leaving Earth behind or the evils of the Federation at large. Kamille picks some of that up from him too, but it doesn't really go any farther than that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Hathaway was raised in the AEUG", either. He appears in a couple episodes of Zeta where he's living in Hong Kong with Mirai as civilians, and that's about it. He's still doing that in CCA, at least until Mirai wrangles him a ticket into space and he ends up on the Ra Cailum by accident. He never spends any time on an AEUG ship or with AEUG members outside the brief period where they show up at his home in Zeta.

Vos iustus a diversis genus delirus.
G2BattleConvoy Cosmic Knight G-Diver from Jupiter X Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Cosmic Knight G-Diver
Jul 7th 2021 at 1:33:05 AM

One thing I do not completely get is: was Mafty started up before Hathaway joined, or did Hathaway start up Mafty?

Come check out my YouTube channel, I make stuff about Gundam and Doom!
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii
Avatar by Leafsnake
Jul 7th 2021 at 2:21:02 AM

[up] That's an interesting question that I hope we learn more about in the other movies. As of now, my theory is that there was an anti-Federation movement already but Hathaway molded it into the mafty that's currently active.

I do wonder if some of the other major UC characters will be added into this story, even if as cameos. Like during the broadcast for the new bill or the execution we will see Mineva watching it on tv.

Edited by DrPsyche on Jul 6th 2021 at 11:21:13 PM

ashlay Om Mani Padme Hm
Om Mani Padme Hm
Jul 7th 2021 at 7:50:43 AM

Quack Salver is the founder of Mafty (Think Blex to Char with AEUG). This gets explained during the speedboat ride with Emerelda in the first novel. There's a section early in novel 2 that may or may not get adapted that goes a little bit more into this. But hey, since this may be in the second movie, I'll spoiler this part regarding Hathaway and Mafty origins: Quack recruited Hathaway. Mafty existed beforehand. But the general implication is that the Mafty Navue Erin identity is all Hathaway, as well as the full introduction of Char's ideology into the group. This is not to say Mafty didn't have the same general goals before, but Hathaway is the one who studied Char's life and beliefs and he is indeed the one doing the public broadcasts that are causing Mafty to become popular among the masses.

Edited by ashlay on Jul 7th 2021 at 10:51:28 AM

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii
Avatar by Leafsnake
Jul 7th 2021 at 1:09:38 PM

[up] Interesting. I know that the page states that Quack's identity is ultimately an Un Reveal but it would be really cool if he was revealed to be a character we'd already known. Like Meran or someone. Meran's a clean ESFS officer (not a General though) who knew Hathaway beforehand, so it could work

G2BattleConvoy Cosmic Knight G-Diver from Jupiter X Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Cosmic Knight G-Diver
Jul 7th 2021 at 3:52:25 PM

I mean, if Meran is Quack Salver, then if Bright ever found out that his XO brought Hathaway into an Eco-Terrorist group, then uh, I'd imagine Bright would be royally pissed.

Because Hathaway is still Bright's son, you know.

Come check out my YouTube channel, I make stuff about Gundam and Doom!

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