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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#25201: Jul 8th 2024 at 7:02:44 PM

I have fond memories of Zoids: New Century and the Liger Zero in that one. Though there's one big difference between Liger Zero and Strike Gundam: Liger Zero fights its final battle without any upgrades. It's not often you see a final battle play out like that in a Humongous Mecha series. I think Gundam did that with Gundam 00.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#25202: Jul 8th 2024 at 7:43:02 PM

[up]Well, Exia fought an even older Gundam, so it was the overdog of the final battle.

Continue writing our story of peace.
Xorn15 Nurse Mordred Attending from R&D Platform, Seychelles Waters Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Nurse Mordred Attending
#25203: Jul 8th 2024 at 8:20:31 PM

[up],[up][up]Also, Suletta fought Eri in a 20+ year old deathtrap.

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#25204: Jul 9th 2024 at 7:18:23 AM

[up]Not to mention that she fought against an entire army of drones first that she annihilated. And she didn't even get touched until Eri came out to face her directly. And throughout their fight, she barely even fights back, not wanting to actually harm her. I think she only lands a single kick on a Gund-Bit that got too close to her and otherwise only destroys the drones that occasionally get in the way.

Edited by Resileafs on Jul 9th 2024 at 11:25:41 AM

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#25205: Jul 10th 2024 at 1:07:42 PM

But yeah. When SEED was airing the Liger Zero parallels were boggling to me. Not just that the Striker packs were the same idea (color coded mission packs for the white main mecha) but also just how similar the execution was, with the three packs being roughly 1-1 analogues to each other (Aile/Jaeger: Most common pack used, designed for high mobility. Sword/Schneider: Melee-based pack designed around laser blades. Launcher/Panzer: Green artillery pack with low mobility).

Not to mention the Gratuitous German involved in both means that the Sword Strike has two of the Liger's forms as weapons.

So yeah. It did strike me as logical for the Strike to either end the series as either the basic Strike a la the Liger or the Perfect Strike, or for Kira's upgrade to be a combination of all the Striker packs a la the Destiny. Instead the Strike just kinda... meanders as a hand-me-down before getting a nice final moment that is then completely undermined by the sequel.

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DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
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#25206: Jul 11th 2024 at 12:23:59 AM

Was Lacus's character inspired by Macross? Maybe it's just the pop idol parallels, but she feels more at home in that franchise.

G2BattleConvoy The Hope, The Hero from Installation 07 Since: Mar, 2017 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Hope, The Hero
#25207: Jul 11th 2024 at 1:25:38 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't. Granted, I'm not that with familiar with Macross itself, but I get the impression that Lacus was also fairly unique at the time for being politically savvy.

"We all fail. We all make mistakes. That is what makes us human."
amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#25208: Jul 11th 2024 at 5:07:17 AM

Yeah, her being a singer was mostly secondary to that. Gundam already had Relena and Diana in this role, whereas none of Macross' singers ever had any sort of political savviness or even influence (with the possible very minor exception of Mylene due to her parents being in charge of the fleet).

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#25209: Jul 11th 2024 at 1:12:04 PM

Flay just went on a rant about how awful coordinators are right to the faces of 2 coordinators.

Racist Queen

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
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#25210: Jul 14th 2024 at 10:51:45 PM

With the BUCUE's, SEED is really starting to remind me of Zoids.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#25211: Jul 15th 2024 at 1:36:19 AM

One difference of course is that the Zoids in Zoids aren't just machines but full blown mechanical lifeforms who were turned into Humongous Mecha by being implanted into giant robots as cores.

The only Gundam series that goes with something similar is Witch from Mercury with Aerial being Eri uploaded into a Mobile Suit.

Disgusted, but not surprised
G2BattleConvoy The Hope, The Hero from Installation 07 Since: Mar, 2017 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Hope, The Hero
#25212: Jul 15th 2024 at 1:46:23 AM

What about The Innovades from Gundam 00? Technically, Tieria gets uploaded to the 00 Qan[T] by the end of the film.

"We all fail. We all make mistakes. That is what makes us human."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#25213: Jul 15th 2024 at 2:06:19 AM

And now that I think about it, G Gundam did something like that too with the Devil Gundam and its various "cores". The supposed pilots were just brainwashed slaves of the Devil Gundam and used to power it.

Edited by M84 on Jul 15th 2024 at 5:07:57 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
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#25214: Jul 15th 2024 at 1:02:34 PM

Also, aliens exist in SEED?! Or at least did exist once. They don't really reference it much but they have some kind of alien fish fossil.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#25215: Jul 15th 2024 at 1:32:28 PM

They are just set dressing. Living aliens never appear in CE.

Continue writing our story of peace.
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
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#25216: Jul 15th 2024 at 10:30:38 PM

Oh there's a cuck arc. That's something.

Damn, Yzak really killed a ship full of civilians. I knew he was a villain, but wow.

RAlexa21th was right, SEED really is 0079 but with toxic teenage drama. Man, the cast gets kind of grating sometimes. A lot of the characters aren't clicking with me, Mu and Natarle being the only exceptions.

Edited by DrPsyche on Jul 15th 2024 at 7:37:10 AM

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#25217: Jul 15th 2024 at 11:23:18 PM

I do find Kira and Arthrun pretty engaging with their Conflicting Loyalty, especially on Arthrun's side, and the writers knew that teen drama is the key to make an AU a smash hit.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Jul 15th 2024 at 11:23:25 AM

Continue writing our story of peace.
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#25218: Jul 16th 2024 at 6:26:40 AM

SEED does eventually grow out of a 0079 remake and most people think it's an improvement. Personally, I like the first half better because while... Aggressively 2000's it's still compelling. In the second half the morality becomes more Black-and-White Morality than DBZ which I find frustrating.

Also I find the Freedom Gundam boring, though I do dig the color scheme.

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DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
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#25219: Jul 16th 2024 at 2:06:57 PM

It is interesting that for a 0079 remake it makes the Zeon equivalent much more sympathetic. They're, mostly, fighting a defensive war it seems like and the big act of aggression, bloody valentine, was against them.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#25220: Jul 16th 2024 at 2:09:58 PM

Then again, the effects of their response aren't exactly explored, so...

Wake me up at your own risk.
G2BattleConvoy The Hope, The Hero from Installation 07 Since: Mar, 2017 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Hope, The Hero
#25221: Jul 16th 2024 at 2:10:47 PM

[up][up] At the same time, it was mentioned that one of ZAFT's acts of retaliation was implied to cripple a significant chunk of Earth's energy supply. Which isn't the best action to go with, but then again, the EA started it in the first place, so...

Edited by G2BattleConvoy on Jul 16th 2024 at 10:11:03 AM

"We all fail. We all make mistakes. That is what makes us human."
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#25222: Jul 16th 2024 at 3:23:09 PM

It is interesting that for a 0079 remake it makes the Zeon equivalent much more sympathetic. They're, mostly, fighting a defensive war it seems like and the big act of aggression, bloody valentine, was against them.

Honestly, I think they overcompensated here.

One of the things I mentioned in this thread when I was rewatching Seed a few months ago is that CE actually has a pretty good setup for presenting it as neither side being "the good guys" or "the bad guys", but as factions with incompatible goals and legitimate beef with each other that doesn't just boil down to "one side is racist" or "one side wants to rule the world". But despite all the foundation for that being laid, the narrative treats ZAFT much more sympathetically overall. There are frequent reminders of OMNI atrocities against ZAFT, while ZAFT's atrocities against OMNI are mentioned once or twice throughout the series and never really followed up on. There are ZAFT-aligned characters that are treated sympathetically, while OMNI-aligned characters (outside of the main cast) are basically universally assholes (with the sole exception of Admiral Halberton, who just gets killed off instantly instead).

In other words, if you look at the events as they're actually described, both sides come off as about equally bad. But if you look at how the story frames them, ZAFT gets treated with kid gloves while OMNI gets full blame for their actions.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#25223: Jul 16th 2024 at 3:54:43 PM

Kid gloves is a good expression for it. It's like when Watfield attacks that city and they keep mentioning how noble he is for not killing anyone. and like, he blew up their homes and left them without food or water in the middle of a desert, c'mon now.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#25224: Jul 17th 2024 at 8:20:50 AM

Looks like SEED is repeating history here.

For context, real life Nazi general Erwin Rommel, the Desert Fox and at least indirectly an inspiration for Waltfeld, was widely praised by both sides of WWII for being a clean and apolitical noble warrior, but modern contextualization lands on "well, he was surrounded by so much propaganda that how involved he was or wasn't in the war crimes his forces committed and how much of his myth was true or propaganda."

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#25225: Jul 22nd 2024 at 1:19:54 PM

Double post, but since someone is reporting edit-warring on YMMV.Gundam SEED Freedom, regarding the Ass Pull entry, WhatAnIdiot.Gundam got my attention since it was brought up at the same time.

And, I dunno, the entry from the original Gundam strikes me as really weird.

  • In the very first episode, a squad of three Zakus are sent on a reconnaissance mission to the Federation's Side 7 Colony. Two of the Zakus enter undetected, where they see the Federation's prototype Mobile Suits, including the RX-78-2 Gundam.
    • You'd Expect: That they'd quietly leave the colony and report their findings to their captain Char Aznable. From there, they can plan an attack using their new intel and maybe call in a few Zeon warships to prepare a larger force to invade the colony, destroying their enemy's new weapons before they ever get a chance to use them.
    • Instead: One of the Zaku pilots, Gene, breaks orders and launches an unauthorized attack on the colony. The sudden assault causes tremendous damage and leaves many innocent civilians dead. Although Gene manages to kill several enemy officers and some of their prototype weapons, he fails to get the Gundam or the White Base.
    • The Result: One of the survivors, teenager Amuro Ray, hijacks the Gundam, using it to kill Gene and his superior officer. From there, he and his friends take refuge in the White Base and become valued members of its crew, setting off the events that would lead to Zeon's eventual defeat.

Basically, it feels like only What An Idiot if you go in knowing that Falling into the Cockpit is a trope and are working backwards. The The Result is such a ridiculously wild scenario to have expected it to happen. And I'm pretty positive that if, say, they had done what You'd expect then we'd have an entry for them doing that instead of trying to destroy the unmanned and unattended prototypes when they had a chance.

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