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Rename: The Gump

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Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Dec 31st 2009 at 7:42:41 AM

The Gump.

Named for a character who is far, far more famous for being The Fool. On top of this, it's a term that has a lot of other usage that is totally unrelated to the trope.

Additionally, the name links the trope too closely to characters inserted in real-world history, concealing the fact that this trope far more frequently refers to retcons to fictional history.

edited 31st Dec '09 7:45:13 AM by Aquillion

jfpbookworm Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Dec 31st 2009 at 8:48:39 AM

Historical Insertion, perhaps?

I'd suggest Beethoven Was Inspired By An Alien Spy, but that'd get confusing real quick.

(Personally, I think that the usages where the "historical" events aren't real-world historical, like Lost or StarWarsExpandedUniverse, are misusages, but apparently others disagree.)

edited 31st Dec '09 10:42:47 AM by jfpbookworm

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3: Dec 31st 2009 at 9:42:52 AM

I'd like to insert disagreement. The Gump is named for the Most Triumphant Example of the trope. It is nowhere near as recognized without such a name.

This sounds like a rename for the hell of it.

Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Dec 31st 2009 at 10:18:54 AM

The problem is that it is also the Most Triumphant Example of lots of other things, too, and Gump as a specific character describes The Fool and Dumb Is Good much more than he does this trope.

It isn't enough for a work to be triumphant; for a character named trope to work, the character has to have that trope as their defining characteristic. Using The Brunnhilde as a trope about fat female opera singers would be a bad idea, even though that role is, without question, the most iconic for that image, because the character is iconic for many other things as well. Similarly, Forrest Gump carries too many extra connotations to be a good trope namer on his own.

The Gump also fails the One Mario Limit — there is a Wizard of Oz character by the same name (the exact same name as the trope, that is), who you'll notice comes up repeatedly if you try to search the wiki for the trope.

The trope actually has comparatively few incoming potholes (I count about a dozen or so works that use it) compared to the length of its list. This shows that people are not remembering it or reusing it — the description is fine (people put plenty of things in its article, when they're linked to it), but its poorly-chosen name is keeping people from recognizing it at a glance when they see it in a list, and that keeps them from using it elsewhere.

Why would I suggest renaming something just for the sake of renaming? I think it has a bad name.

Conversely, why would you want to keep the current name? If you just want to assert that Forrest Gump is the Most Triumphant Example of this trope, you can do that on the Most Triumphant Example page, that's what it's there for — but tropes aren't supposed to be named based on showing who is most triumphant. They're supposed to be named in a way that makes them snappy, easy to understand at a glance, and easy to use. The Gump fails those.

(Part of the reason Most Triumphant Example exists in the first place is to try and syphon that "yaaay, most triumphant!" way of thinking away from the rest of tvtropes, so we don't constantly get people naming tropes and inserting pictures and quotes just to show how their favorite show is Most Triumphant.)

edited 31st Dec '09 10:26:17 AM by Aquillion

Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#5: Dec 31st 2009 at 11:56:31 AM

I found the immediate association with a work helpful to understanding what this trope was. Maybe if we add a few words to make it more searchable? I can't think of any that aren't incredibly lame and retarded, but something like... How The Gump Saved History?

BTW, I'm a chick.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#6: Dec 31st 2009 at 1:05:02 PM

Alternate titles to The Gump could be something like Witness To History (after all that is the core of being The Gump, a witness to significant history is it not?)

Still not agreeing with a rename though.

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#7: Dec 31st 2009 at 2:12:57 PM

Not the best name possible. Forrest is better known as The Fool.

Historical Insertion would be better.

jfpbookworm Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Dec 31st 2009 at 4:58:35 PM

To me, Forrest Gump History evokes the idea that the history of the late 20th century mirrors the life cycle of the Baby Boomers: innocence in the 1950s, the "discovery" of sex and rebellion in the 1960s, etc.

Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Jan 1st 2010 at 12:07:47 AM

Alternate titles to The Gump could be something like Witness To History (after all that is the core of being The Gump, a witness to significant history is it not?)
Actually, going by the description, no. It isn't. That's what Forrest Gump often was, but it's not what this trope's description describes. This trope (at least by its description, and by many examples in its list) is not just for a witness, but for a mover-and-shaker, someone who is retconned to be the one who caused important events in the past:

What if it turns out that the character was responsible for a major well-known incident?

Enter The Gump. While in many cases an original and often very well written character in their own right, The Gump simply cannot get around the fact that a good chunk of his screen time is being the driving force behind major events that have already been written or described by others.

Again, this shows why character-named tropes are generally bad ideas — you unconsciously redefined the trope in your head to be closer to the trope namer. The connection to Forrest Gump in the title is capable of causing confusion, so I feel it would be better to simply do away with it — it doesn't gain you very much as a title anyway, because Gump is famous for many things.

A new name, hrm. Just brainstorming potential names (or things that might be reworked into names)... Historical Insertion Character, Ret Con Insertion Character, Responsible For History, Caused History To Happen, Ret Cause Of History...

edited 1st Jan '10 12:13:09 AM by Aquillion

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#11: Jan 1st 2010 at 2:55:37 AM

Y'know, I'm wondering if we should go with the obscure Watchmen joke and name it The Times They Are A Changin.  *

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
Vree Since: Jan, 2001
#13: Jan 1st 2010 at 3:54:31 AM

There's a Fictional Inventor suggestion in YKTTW that seems to be the same as this. I'll pass some links around so that both sides can take it into consideration.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#14: Jan 1st 2010 at 4:06:38 AM

Fictional Inventor makes me think of ... well, an inventor who is fictional, like Dr. Frankenstein.

edited 1st Jan '10 4:06:53 AM by Raven Wilder

Vree Since: Jan, 2001
#15: Jan 1st 2010 at 12:41:45 PM

Complain about that on the YKTTW page please. :P (It doesn't affect the content of the trope tho.)

edited 1st Jan '10 12:42:55 PM by Vree

randomsurfer Since: Jan, 2001
#16: Jan 1st 2010 at 10:00:02 PM

How about something like Kisses With History, the expression Quantum Leap writers used for these?

Camacan from Australiatown Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Jan 4th 2010 at 9:57:39 PM

I think Aquillion's got it right. I never would have guessed that The Gump refers to a Historical Insertion Figure, since that's a fun but incidential feature of the movie. Forrest is an archetypical wise fool — that's surely what The Gump will read as at first glance.

Historical Insertion Figure is fine — but it doesn't quite convey the idea that the character is covertly responsible for a historical event. Hidden History Maker? I dunno...

edited 5th Jan '10 12:25:10 AM by Camacan

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18: Jan 5th 2010 at 1:55:27 AM

Not The Times They Are A Changing. The song is about political upheaval, which is what most people will think about when they see that title, not the scene in the Watchmen movie.

DRCEQ Since: Oct, 2009
#19: Oct 8th 2010 at 9:08:21 PM

EPIC BUMP!

Stumbling upon this trope, I notice that The Gump and The Zelig are the only two links for it.

Most of the examples seem to be played correctly, but certainly there has to be a more conventional name for at least a redirect to indicate when a character is directly responsible for a historical event.

Directly Responsible For History or something?

Treblain Not An Avatar Since: Nov, 2012
Not An Avatar
#20: Oct 9th 2010 at 4:04:59 PM

Nobody is going to think The Gump is referring to The Fool, simply because there's plenty of other fools in fiction, and there's no reason we would have named it after him. Forrest is a well-known example of a fool, a mentally-challenged person, a Tom Hanks character, and an Alabaman, but he's not specifically known as the prime example of one- while he is the best known example of The Gump.

We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#21: Oct 9th 2010 at 4:45:44 PM

So this is about a character being presented as the one who triggers or causes a number of previously established historical events? In other words, something of a ... well, Historical Catalyst?

PS: I have never actually seen the film Forrest Gump, myself, so I have no love lost on the current title.

edited 9th Oct '10 11:44:18 PM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
DRCEQ Since: Oct, 2009
#22: Oct 9th 2010 at 5:39:50 PM

Yeah. I'm not going to put up a big effort to try and get the trope outright renamed, but at least a redirect that isn't "The (insert name here)"

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#25: Oct 11th 2010 at 9:14:31 AM

The trope actually has comparatively few incoming potholes (I count about a dozen or so works that use it) compared to the length of its list. This shows that people are not remembering it or reusing it — the description is fine (people put plenty of things in its article, when they're linked to it), but its poorly-chosen name is keeping people from recognizing it at a glance when they see it in a list, and that keeps them from using it elsewhere.

It's potholed on 95 pages (including 11 for its even more obscure redirect), which is fairly modest, and has brought at least 244 people to this wiki.

Are there any signs of misuse?

edited 11th Oct '10 9:15:01 AM by SeanMurrayI


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