Shin Megami Tensei Series

sounds pretty far off the deep end then. Welp, I'll refrain from arguing more about it unless I actually get to play the game someday then.

edit : Was it supposed to be sarcasm ? Because I'm legit intetrested in what if stories with those as premise. Every single one of them.

Also, pointing out they could still back down if they followed their own ideas to the logical end but they won't because they have come so far doesn't sound like contradicting the original story to me, and more like making it actually more tragic

Edited by Yumil on Sep 22nd 2018 at 3:41:59 PM

Some of those are pretty bad false comparisons. Like seriously Griffith? You use him as an example. Hell Femto would be the point afterwards where that can happen.

The whole point is that SMT hybrids are always meant to be like Devilmen, most lose their humanity, but some can regain it if given the right path. Akira Fudo himself became a mere demon in his desire for vengeance ''and'm his desire to see humanity burn as well near the end of Devilman. All it took was seeing some tears plus some Japanese metaphors about love "The moon is beautiful" and Akiras last moments is him feeling conflicted aboaut it all.

Since we're on the same route as them they aren't completely gone. Jimenez and Zelenin still have some specks of humanity, but if we agree with them and not Alex they transition into full Angel/Demon.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 22nd 2018 at 6:45:44 AM

x2 Yes that was supposed to be sarcasm. At that point you're basically asking that bad things not happen in fiction because you like the characters.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 22nd 2018 at 9:41:58 AM

... because the only bad things happening in strange journey are because of jimenez or zelenin ? I thought there were was so many people doing bad things in that game with far less sympathetic premises than those two that I'd need to check again the character page to not miss half of them in a list.

(and aside from lion king, the same remark goes for what you cited)

Also, redemption doesn't make bad things go away. I don't remember saying I wanted zelenin or jimenez to not brainwash the red sprite crew, something that seems to come back regularly in this discussion.

Edited by Yumil on Sep 22nd 2018 at 3:53:55 PM

Not to mention we can agree to mass salughter of Jacks Squad or brainwash the demons into A Fate Worse Than Death without being Law or Chaos.

the other part I'm not getting is because they brainwash the crew, they wouldn't deserve redemption.

Like what, you can't ever atone for past actions ? Because it seemed to me Dark vador got his redemption, and over the years he should have done overall much worse than those two did.

Edited by Yumil on Sep 22nd 2018 at 3:52:24 PM

x5 My point is that Jiminez and Zelenin weren't redeemed because the story of Strange Journey wasn't told with their redemption in mind. That's why Griffith becomes Femto and Scar kills Mufasa, because there needs to be a villain. That's why Rick sends Ilsa off on the plane with Laszlo, because Casablanca was a story about a man giving up his own happiness for the good of someone he loved. That's why Shou Tucker fusion dances his daughter and his dog, because his reveal as a monster is meant to illustrate the dark side of alchemy and shatter Edward's almost religious reverence in its power.

I can't believe I have to argue about basic building blocks of storytelling here.

I swear to god I'm not trying to be an asshole when I ask this but do you even know the first thing about the game's story?

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 22nd 2018 at 9:57:19 AM

It think its clear Yumil has had a while since playing the game, but it was still not the worst thing done in the game. The worst stuff was Mithra/Jacks Squad/Maya/Mastema.

Redux goes on to show that Mem Aleph and TWM are worse too. Even then they play Shekinahs death for tragedy unlike YHVH.

this simultaneous posting and edit arrows makes it hard to follow who's responding to what.

I don't remember arguing against the fact the original story of strange journey wasn't meant to give them a redemption. But where's the problem with redoing the same story with a different intent and giving them a redemption this time ?

Of course there's the question of wether or not it's well executed, but that's a different story.

(oh, crap, you were responding to omega. Well, nevermind then).

I thought I had been clear in the pagetopper I hadn't played the game yet. It's you guys talking about it in the first place who piqued my interest for it, caused me to browse the trope page and it just so happen I might get in sometime soon.

So don't worry, you can't sound like an asshole if you're right.

Edited by Yumil on Sep 22nd 2018 at 4:09:47 PM

They dont gain some magical redemption on the Opposite alignment/Neutral either. They still die and go full inhuman monster on the opposite route and nothing can change that. Only on Law/Chaos do they find redemption.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 22nd 2018 at 7:09:04 AM

x2 Like, again, there's nothing technically wrong with doing so, but it's not faithful to the original themes and characterization of Strange Journey DS. Zelenin and Jiminez's fall into extremism is tragic. You should wish that they remained by your side and redeemed themselves, but actually giving that to the player is like giving the Elric brothers their mom back.

And for the record they never actually do anything about the brainwashing. They just leave the crew mindless thralls or gibbering madmen.

Not all humans are influenced the same. Dents energetic on Chaos but he isn't changed as radically as he is on Law when you complete all the sidequests.

Plus its Mem Alephs and her servants influence that drives people/demons insane. So they'll even out in the end without her poisoning them. We're all that remains of Mem Alephs Chaos faction by the time of Empyrean Ascent and Jimenez disagrees with her on that point.

On Law+ Zelenin changes the use of the song because using it to make Slaves of God only works on 50% of humanity. By changing it to remove aggression only people retain their sense of self and remain human.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 22nd 2018 at 7:14:42 AM

Except the game never gives any indication that the crew has been freed from the Delphinus Parasite on Chaos, and even if Zelenin's song was changed to remove aggression that still involves brainwashing the crew into following you and betraying their mission.

I dont see the problem here. SMT has only been grey in a number of things, and we can agree to do the same things even before Alignment lock. By that notion us having Zelenin brainwash all the demons in Grus but going Neutral means humanity is beyond redemption and must be culled. Thus all sides are wrong.

It's no more worse than Yamato or Ronaldo doing similar for their endgame on all humanity in Desu 2 and party members can still agree to it.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 22nd 2018 at 7:27:00 AM

By that notion us having Zelenin brainwash all the demons in Grus but going Neutral means humanity is beyond redemption and must be culled. Thus all sides are wrong.

I feel like you're just making shit up to upset me now.

Anyway I am consistently amazed at your blind reverence for Jiminez and Zelenin's redemption, but totally turning a blind eye to the steps they take before they even consider it.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 22nd 2018 at 10:36:25 AM

I get where you're coming from, and I get that as someone having played the game I shouldn't argue too much about that since I haven't experienced the story first-hand, but I don't feel the comparison with the elric brothers is fair.

Now, most of what follow basically work from the assumption that as important to the story Jimenez and Zelenin are, they are not the core motivation for the protagonist, nor the reason he's here in the first place. That's what the whole humanity and schwarzwelt part of the game is for. If I happen to be wrong, I'll happily take back everything that comes after.

the elric mom isn't much of a character to properly speak of, and more the core reason for the protagonists to do anything until wayyyyy late in the manga. If it turned out you can actually brought her back, it would impact so many aspects of the narrative that you indeed can't just tell the rest of the story without basically telling an entirely different story.

And I'd say "eeeeeeeh no thanks."

Jimenez and zelenin sounds more akin to me of the traitor in persona 5. I'mma take the risk of opening a pretty big can of worms but Suppose a redux of p5 actually gives him a redemption and lets him live after the final confrontation with him, it would certainly change a fair number of things to the story and it's themes, have people cry that they betrayed the original script because draco in leather pants yadda yadda, but 90% of the game would be unchanged because the story is about much more than him.

And I'd say "sure, why not ?".

Edited by Yumil on Sep 22nd 2018 at 4:37:47 PM

?. We are literally given the choice to have Zelenins Song Brainwash the former test subject demons of Jacks Squad into a Fate Worse than Death, kill Grendel, or mass salughter the Slaves of God Jacks Squad in Grus. And you can be Neutral and still pick the Law/Chaos options.

The traitor of P5 is only a little like Zelenin in that he was manipulated into his actions, but he chose of his own volition to have murder of people not related to his issues solve his problems as part of his long term goal to get revenge.

I'd also argue The Traitor is a weaker character story and plot wise compared to Zelenin and Jimenez.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 22nd 2018 at 7:49:37 AM

So what the fuck does killing demons have to do with taking Neutral meaning humanity "is beyond redemption and must be culled" then?

Because that's just you talking out of your ass. Again.

x2 Zelenin and Jiminez aren't the protagonist's core motivation, but they're the centerpoint of Strange Journey DS's themes of extremism. I feel like softening them into more moderate views is akin to, say, rewriting FMA so that the brothers did get their mom back, because it alters how the story functions. If Trisha actually came back then that would make Ed and Al's decision not one of foolhardy arrogance in the face of death itself that destroyed and mutilated their bodies, but a good thing that brought their mom back to them, and now they just have to clean up the spilled milk of getting Al's body back.

Now it's not a tale of gambling humanity's face on a dice roll or choosing an ultimate option to forever prevent the rise of Schwarzwelt. Now there's just A Better Way, found by being an extremist asshole until the last minute where Alex shows up and moralizes about why it's a bad thing.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 22nd 2018 at 10:54:31 AM

yeah don't get me wrong he's much less relevant to the plot than zel and jim are, but it's still the same general principle comapred to bringing back trisha elric.

Edited by Yumil on Sep 22nd 2018 at 4:53:49 PM

We aren't killing demons. We are inflicting Zelenins Song on them which turns demons into gibberish masses of Mindless Data. Torture victims who suffered at he hands of Jacks Squad, and we can do it regardless of our alignment. By the very notiion us choosig it means we crossed the Moral Event Horizon long before Jimenez/Zelenin "supposedly" do on Law/Chaos.

We inflict something far worse than brainwashing on victims, but you seem to ignore this in favor of your weird hateboner.

They are demons who openly desire the death of all humanity. You'd have a point, for once, if say you unleashed Zelenin on the innocent fairy village.

And for all your complaining about that you're still A-OK with destroying the minds of the Red Sprite and forcing them to help you blow up the world.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 22nd 2018 at 11:02:18 AM

Except they are like that because humans they trusted and joined repaid them by torturing them, ripping them apart, etc.

Not to mention again you are wrong. Some of them even thank us because us doing such a deed showed humans aren't all like Jacks Squad. Others rightfully point out they can't trust humans anymore because of it. And the we can do something even worse than Jack's Fucking Squad!

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 22nd 2018 at 8:05:05 AM

Oh please. I know your neverending stiffy for Chaos has been your thing for over half a decade, but every demon who doesn't offer a sidequest in this game is out for your blood, like how Grendel declares you just as bad as Jack's Squad if you don't follow his deal, or how every fucking demon is a moralizing asshole who constantly talks down to humanity.

And there's no indication in the game that the demons "trusted and believed" in Jack's Squad either. It's just as likely that they were captured, especially given that the only demons Jack's Squad summon to fight with them are genetic chimeras like Slime and Gurr. That is, once again, something you pulled out of your ass to make the side you like look good.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 22nd 2018 at 11:14:25 AM

There are plenty of sidequests demons that don't do that at all. Hell Mara just does dick puns or does them with less enthusiasm when you found out he's a demonized woman.

And again you ignored that some of the demons were thankful to the humans as well for freeing them, but your inability to see things other might see clouds your reasoning on it. In fact you sound like you are indulging in Victim-Blaming. You've been indulging in it quite a bit now that I thought about it.

Jack Squads has crap demons as their weapons and you think they somehow captured them? That's hilarious. Plus if they did that means my reasoning is still valid because they took hostsges to do aweful things too.

The Gurrs and slimes are the result of experimentation I can't believe you never figured that out. One Gurr even complains about how damaged and ruined his body is.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 22nd 2018 at 8:24:59 AM