TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The Dresden Files

Go To

allfictions (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#20451: Feb 13th 2024 at 2:30:24 PM

There's a reason why many consider Proven Guilty to likely be the book Harry will time travel to in the future time travel volume. It's the book where we first got some details on the mechanics of time travel to no seeming plot-relevance, and it's also one of the books where a lot of shit was clearly going on that we didn't find out the reasons for.

It was also brought up in the RPG (Our World) and I think later by Jim, but Sandra Marling is also a big question mark, as the person who introduced Molly to the idea of using fear as a control mechanism, which she later used with her black magic and would attract the phobophages, and was that one person at Splattercon!!! that she was on close terms with, and as its chairman invited "Darby Crane" (aka Madrigal Raith) which distracted Harry enough for Molly's abduction to occur, and then proceeded to suspiciously vanish, with the RPG noting Dresden never found her afterward.

asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#20452: Feb 13th 2024 at 3:29:55 PM

Did Harry ever shake hands with Sandra?

Bewitching Eyes
Chaosjunction Since: Feb, 2010
#20453: Feb 15th 2024 at 6:39:21 AM

[up]

He did meet her but all she did was hand him a vistors pass IIRC.

Starting with a big one: how the hell did the situation with the Korean warlock get so bad? We know that Black Magic is addictive, but it seems this guy went completely under the radar despite enslaving so many people. That they're mostly mentioned to be family could suggest it's some kind of a more insulated case, from some kind of Korean enclave, I guess - but still... A lot was happening in Chicago in the meantime (the Kemmlerites showed up last book), granted.

The impression I got is that stuff like this happens frequently, if not quite as bad as what we see here.

What makes it worse is that the Council knows how to mitigate cases like this from happening (set up organizations like the Paranet to help spread information to both stop stuff like this happening and spread the word when it does) but they don't do it out of either pride or being out of touch. Which segues into my next point...

That´s for the Council overall. Smaller groups within the Council or employed by it are apparently quite up to date. Like Lucio is not only up to date on computers (despite being unable to use one), but also made sure the wardens crime scene investigations are comparable to modern policing standards. The Council is also savvy enough on the stock market to finance the whole organisation, as well as supplement the Wardens salary with stocks (since technically the Wardens wages were last updated in the 50s). I find it quite believeable that a small department could spread disinformation, though i also wouldn´t find it unlikely if said department was technically part of a subordinate organisation (like the Venatori).

A smaller group within an organization changing procedures does not equal the organization as a whole changing policy, which is what would need to happen for any modern disinfo department to succeed at it's job.

Edited by Chaosjunction on Feb 15th 2024 at 9:40:52 AM

MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#20454: Feb 17th 2024 at 4:17:15 AM

Actually, I'm not sure the WC does understand the value of the Paranet.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20455: Feb 17th 2024 at 4:43:18 AM

They absolutely don't.

I think Jim is fairly obviously building to the White Tower collapsing and Paranet taking its place.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#20456: Feb 17th 2024 at 4:54:05 AM

"White Tower"? I don't know if that was a mistake or not, but it's definitely an apt comparison.

And yeah, if the Council doesn't get wiped out and replaced by the Paranet, I'll be shocked.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
allfictions (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#20457: Feb 17th 2024 at 9:02:08 AM

Luccio was going to explain the value of the Paranet to the WC before the whole battle of Chichén Itza thing, who knows if that was on the table again after that.

And I very much doubt the WC is gonna fall/be replaced. There may be a new world order where Nothing Is the Same Anymore by the time of the BAT, but DF really doesn't strike me as a "burn down to rebuild" kind of series, it's not that radical or revolutionary.

I can see a massive internal reform, coming from the younger generations and Wardens who lived through the War, since they have been prominent since Dead Beat. The Paranet doesn't have the mystical strength, allies, or longevity to be like the WC on the supernatural scene. At best they may fuse.

Edited by allfictions on Feb 17th 2024 at 12:07:04 PM

MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#20458: Feb 17th 2024 at 9:09:12 AM

Peace Talks outright said that the younger WC members are only slightly more moderate than the older generations and nobody is actually looking to make any changes.

I think the only real question is who is going to put the kibosh on the WC.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#20459: Feb 17th 2024 at 9:27:43 AM

Ultimately the issue is that the White Council isn't for humans, it's for wizards, and wizard-level talent is like literally one in a millionnote . They're kind of de facto the human-aligned supernatural group, since no one else even comes close, but it's not really a neat fit.

Rather than being destroyed or reformed, I think it's more like that the White Council just stops even pretending to represent baseline humanity and becomes purely the wizard's club, while the Paranet and whatever Harry's getting set up forms the basis of a group explicitly and exclusively for protecting vanilla humans from supernatural threats.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
allfictions (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#20460: Feb 17th 2024 at 2:08:48 PM

IIRC, the thing that is brought up is that the demographic explosion of the world population since the mid-20th century means it becomes the WC's problem so they can't realistically become isolationists, which is part of why the Paranet is so important:

“Once a dog goes rabid, you can’t bring him back,” I said. “All you can do is keep him from hurting others. The best solution is prevention. Find the kids displaying serious talent and teach them better from the get-go. But the world population has grown so much in the past century that the White Council can’t possibly identify and reach them all. Especially with this war on. There just aren’t enough of us.”

“Yes. And in the time it takes to make that distinction, a lot of innocent people have died, Miss Carpenter,” Anastasia said, her tone frank and gentle. “The human population has expanded with unthinkable speed in the past two centuries. More and more wizard-level talents are being born. Every time one of them goes warlock, we have less and less time to confront the problem—and nowhere near enough help.”

“Prevention,” I said. “Find them early and they don’t go warlock.”

“Resources.” She sighed. We’d had this talk before. “If the entire Council did nothing but Warden duty, full-time, it still wouldn’t be enough.”

“Education,” I said. “Use the Paranet. Get the smaller talents to help identify the gifted.”

She smiled at me and said, “I’m still building support for it. It’s a good idea, Harry. It might even work. The problem is making some of the others in the Council understand it. They see it only as a security risk, especially after Peabody. But it’s a good idea. Its time will come—eventually.”

(I really like fictional supernatural political issues, getting me to care about people with magic being born without support.)

So I don't think the WC can't quite cut itself off from vanilla humans, not at this point and with this problem hanging above their heads.

Peace Talks outright said that the younger WC members are only slightly more moderate than the older generations and nobody is actually looking to make any changes.
I don't recall PT saying anything of the sorts, and I just CTRL+F both books.

In fact, even when grumbling about them or criticizing them because of the antagonism set up in PT/BG (and taking Harry's own biased perspective as evidence in the first place is already a fool's game lol), Harry acknowledges the WC had him under its protection as part of their aegis and that a Black Council leading it would be a bad thing.

I really don't see the series go that route. It is pretty happy having necessary evils around like Marcone, Lara, and Mab, why would the WC in particular be set up to be destroyed when these others are left around? It's really not the vibes it's giving off, so I think people expecting something like the SHIELD being disbanded are gonna be disappointed.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20461: Feb 17th 2024 at 3:00:52 PM

I see it as being destroyed because:

  • The fall of the Big Good makes things more tense.
  • The series has a set ending that is meant to be apocalyptic in Jim's worlds.
  • The hubris of the Council and it's failings have been repeatedly hammered home.
  • The White Council's leadership is thoroughly infiltrated by the Black Council.
  • Whoever is behind the Red Court and Formor was very focused on destroying the White Council.
  • Harry will be there to substitute the Paranet as an alternative and rise to replace it.

If Jim wants to up the stakes, this is about where he has to go.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 17th 2024 at 3:02:01 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20462: Feb 17th 2024 at 3:31:44 PM

I imagine the inevitable fall of the WC will be treated as a bad thing. The general impression will be that for all its faults, the WC was still doing a great service protecting humanity. And with them gone, everyone will be less safe for it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#20463: Feb 17th 2024 at 3:49:47 PM

IIRC, the thing that is brought up is that the demographic explosion of the world population since the mid-20th century means it becomes the WC's problem so they can't realistically become isolationists, which is part of why the Paranet is so important:

I see them as allies with Harry/the Paranet, but separate from them. When the Paranet turns up a wizard, the White Council gets notified to deal with them. Probably at the Council's strict insistence — they wouldn't want to let an upstart like the Paranet recruit wizard-level talent, since the Council considers themselves the authority over all wizards.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20464: Feb 17th 2024 at 4:40:31 PM

[up][up]

It's more also that I think they'll be the equivalent of the Old Jedi Order given Jim's love of Star Wars.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#20465: Feb 18th 2024 at 5:02:55 PM

The general impression will be that for all its faults, the WC was still doing a great service protecting humanity. And with them gone, everyone will be less safe for it.

Didn't Battle Grounds have Harry make a big fuss about how he absolutely had to keep the Eye of Balor himself to make sure the Council didn't get it?

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20466: Feb 18th 2024 at 5:57:03 PM

Well yeah. Harry acknowledging the WC served a purpose in keeping humanity safe and trusting them with a superweapon are two different things.

Honestly, the Eye of Balor is something nobody should have. Including Harry.

Edited by M84 on Feb 18th 2024 at 9:57:58 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#20467: Feb 18th 2024 at 6:17:19 PM

Harry was also quick to accept that the Eye was the only thing the WC actually cared about on the Battle of Chicago.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20468: Feb 18th 2024 at 6:19:06 PM

TBF, the Eye of Balor is basically a magical nuke. It's not surprising the WC would prioritize that.

Disgusted, but not surprised
allfictions (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#20469: Feb 18th 2024 at 6:52:54 PM

Harry is quick to accept a lot of things about the WC, his (partly justified/founded) bias about it is his whole thing. Doesn't mean it has to be taken at face value.

I do like this post about it:

There is a moment in Battle Ground that really crystallizes Dresden’s unfounded contempt for the Council, when Mab says all the Accorded nations are on the field for the chance to seize the Eye of Balor.

I could imagine what the Senior Council would be saying about it if I accused them, too. Too dangerous, could cause havoc, can’t let those monsters have it, we’ll be able to lock it away and keep it safe, harrumph, harrumph.

Dresden’s mockery here is ridiculous, because every single one of those statements is clearly and obviously true! The Eye is too dangerous, it could cause havoc, the Council can’t let those monsters have it, and they would be able to lock it away and keep it safe in Edinburgh. None of that can be reasonably questioned, and the fact that Harry is questioning it frankly shows how unreasonable he is being. The Council fought Ethniu to obtain the Eye of Balor, AND to maintain their reputation by honoring the Accords, AND to protect the defenseless people of Chicago. That Dresden even views that statement as an accusation really shows the different ways they perceive the world.

Edited by allfictions on Feb 18th 2024 at 9:55:07 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20470: Feb 18th 2024 at 6:58:18 PM

It's no surprise Harry's biased either. The WC are the people who wanted to chop his head off when he was a teenager and then wanted to chop off his best friend's daughter Molly's head years later. The WC letting Morgan's rep go down the gutter — right after Harry had finally come to sympathize with Morgan no less — didn't endear them to him either.

It also didn't help that the WC are a bunch of hypocrites concerning the Laws of Magic, considering they have a position that exists specifically to break those Laws.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20471: Feb 18th 2024 at 6:59:07 PM

Ahem.

I would love to say Harry is in the wrong here or being overly biased but the above seems to assume that Harry is worried about the Knight Templar element of the White Council, which, sure he probably is.

But, in fact, Harry absolutely knows the Black Ajah...I mean, Black Council exists.

Worse, they're on the Senior Council.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20472: Feb 18th 2024 at 7:00:20 PM

Not really. As far as we know, the only confirmed Black Council collaborator in the WC's senior membership was Peabody.

The WC's issue isn't that they're being led around by Nemesis (anymore at least). The WC's issue is that they're old and tired and the world is changing too rapidly for them.

Edited by M84 on Feb 18th 2024 at 11:01:19 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
allfictions (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#20473: Feb 18th 2024 at 7:03:35 PM

I did say his bias was justified. There's no denying their handling of his case and later years of excessive suspicion wouldn't endear him to them.

The Reddit post is just correct in pointing out that this is less of a Black-and-White Morality conflict and more of a ideological conflict of Good Versus Good between two kinds of orders on humanity's side clashing over how to do so.

As for the Black Council, the problem is that the man Harry and Eb suspected to be their agent on the Senior Council...fought against Ethniu (who was indirectly backed by Nemesis) and most likely died, so it's now back to square one.

Edited by allfictions on Feb 18th 2024 at 10:07:11 AM

asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#20474: Feb 18th 2024 at 7:07:02 PM

[up][up] Harry suspects that whathisface is a BC mole, at the very least. The newest SC member. Either that or he's wildly incompetent.

Bewitching Eyes
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20475: Feb 18th 2024 at 7:12:32 PM

Either way, it's symptomatic of the general issue with the WC. It's become too old, hidebound, and unwilling to engage in serious self-reflection.

Heck, it's kind of their fault Harry's struggling with the after effects of breaking the First Law of Magic. Justine Dumorne was one of their own, and they failed to realize he had gone rogue.

Disgusted, but not surprised

Total posts: 20,725
Top