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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20401: Jan 21st 2024 at 6:24:23 PM

I wouldn't call a Harry a hypocrite because he'd happily admit he plays favorites, especially family.

He considers it a virtue he'd burn the world down for his daughter.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Samaldin Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#20402: Jan 21st 2024 at 10:49:52 PM

Harry being willing to do terrible stuff for family is not what makes him a hypocrite. He sees himself as being damned anyway. Harry is a hypocrite for believing certain acts are inexcusable and being willing to kill for that, except if the culprit is family. Then he will be cross with them, but will accept it eventually (like Eb using black magic to kill).

Edited by Samaldin on Jan 21st 2024 at 7:50:27 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20403: Jan 21st 2024 at 11:15:14 PM

Ebenezer's kind of excused since his official position as Blackstaff means he's sanctioned to break the Laws of Magic when the Council deems it necessary.

It's still a sore point for Harry since Ebenezer was the one who taught Harry the Laws and why it's so important not to break them.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Samaldin Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#20404: Jan 22nd 2024 at 9:27:54 AM

Do you honestly think that the council sanctioning something is a factor for Harry? One of the main reasons Harry´s so often in conflict with the council is because he puts his morality over their authority (and finds their morals to be lacking).

If anyone but Eb was the Blackstaff it wouldn´t just be a sore point for Harry. He would want absolutely nothing to do with them, might even outright hate them for perverting the closest thing Harry has to a religion. It would surely worsen his relationship with the Council even more for sanctioning it (he currently can´t do so without condeming Eb as well).

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#20405: Jan 22nd 2024 at 10:30:10 AM

I thought the deal was that the Blackstaff (as in, the physical object itself) somehow prevented the wielder from suffering the mental corruption that normally comes from breaking the Laws?

While "don't kill people with magic" or "don't meddle with people's minds" are good guidelines, the only reason they're treated as absolute Laws is because of how they near-inevitably turn people into monsters - take that factor out of the equation, and it's a different kettle of fish.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20406: Jan 22nd 2024 at 10:32:28 AM

I mean, it's something Harry is disgusted by.

And yes, the Blackstaff absorbs the corruption somehow.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Samaldin Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#20407: Jan 22nd 2024 at 3:15:36 PM

An important aspect of the Blackstaff is that it ONLY stops the mental corruption. That Eb is able to cast his killing spells at all is already something to be very concerned about. Not only does Eb turn the power of life into a tool to kill, he also fully beliefes that he is in the right to do so. The Blackstaff just prevents the supernatural aspect of the corruption, not the human aspect.

Edited by Samaldin on Jan 22nd 2024 at 12:17:16 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20408: Jan 22nd 2024 at 11:30:00 PM

It's also Ebenezer's own damn fault that Harry takes the Laws and their violation so seriously.

He's the one who taught Harry about the Laws and why it's so important not to break them. If Harry takes breaking them so damn personally, it's because of Eb.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20409: Jan 23rd 2024 at 6:36:49 PM

Notably, Jim Butcher has said Harry will break every Law of Magic before the series is over. Black Magic is dangerous and mind-destroying but it's not quite as clear cut as Harry thinks it is either.

After all, Harry kills nonhuman things all the time with his magic.

It's only What Measure Is a Non-Human? that Harry sees a big difference between them and the more monstrous humans.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20410: Jan 23rd 2024 at 6:38:25 PM

Harry basically doesn't have a problem killing when he thinks whoever he's killing aren't people.

It should be noted that the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" Law of Magic is specifically about killing humans using magic. The White Council has no real problem with killing nonhumans with magic. They're also pretty chill about killing humans with means besides magic like the Wardens' swords.

Edited by M84 on Jan 23rd 2024 at 10:41:25 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#20411: Jan 23rd 2024 at 7:40:30 PM

Really, if there has to be a Blackstaff, it’s better for it to be someone who holds the Laws in such high regard as Ebenezer seems to. This helps to ensure they only get broken when needful. Could you imagine what the Blackstaff would be like in the hands of an asshole like Christos?

I don’t think Harry has really thought that through.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20412: Jan 23rd 2024 at 7:44:28 PM

[up][up][up]Also, Harry has already broken the First Law of Magic anyway in his backstory. Even killing an Evil Mentor with magic in self-defense counts as a violation of the Law. It's one of Harry's main traits in the series that he's already compromised.

Edited by M84 on Jan 23rd 2024 at 11:45:24 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20413: Jan 23rd 2024 at 10:11:23 PM

Yes, the real question is whether Harry's reverence for the laws is justified or not.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#20414: Jan 23rd 2024 at 10:13:41 PM

Well, it's a slippery slope innit? You think you'll be fine if you bend the rules once or twice and then before you know it you're a cackling lunatic getting your head chopped off after the Wardens ramraided your death cult headquarters.

Bewitching Eyes
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20415: Jan 23rd 2024 at 10:16:02 PM

The Laws are definitely a big deal and are there for good reason. The whole point of Harry eventually breaking all of them will be to show just how serious the stakes are.

As of Battlegrounds though, he's only broken two.

  • He broke the First Law "Thou Shall Not Kill" in the backstory when he killed Justin with magic.

  • He broke the Fifth Law "Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life" when he raised the T-Rex skeleton (that's necromancy — albeit with the loophole that he didn't perform it on human remains).

So the question remains as to what exactly will drive Harry to do the following:

  • Transform others into something else

  • Invade the minds of others

  • Control the minds of others

  • Time travel

  • Contact Outsiders

Edited by M84 on Jan 24th 2024 at 2:21:33 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Samaldin Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#20416: Jan 23rd 2024 at 10:43:14 PM

My guesses would be

  • Transform others into something else: A sort of mercy kill situation or trying to reverse someone elses transformation. Like the kraken in BG who may or may not have been human once.
  • Invade the minds of others: No idea, but maybe a Godzilla Threshold kind of situation during the BAT
  • Control the minds of others: No idea, but maybe a Godzilla Threshold kind of situation during the BAT
  • Time travel: I´ve thought for a long time that during the BAT Harry will create a safe haven in Chicago, employing the method used to create Demonreach and using Little Chicago as a focus (resulting in a timeloop in which he is the one that fixes it). Little Chicago was a way to major item for the scant handful of times it was used for relatively minor spells.
  • Contact Outsiders: Can´t beat them up without approaching them. Though the Law is about opening the Outer Gates, so technically opening them to throw invading Outsiders out of reality would count.

Druplesnubb Editor of Posts Since: Dec, 2013
Editor of Posts
#20417: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:53:16 AM

I assume the time travel stuff will be a Mirror Mirror thing.

MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#20418: Jan 24th 2024 at 3:50:32 AM

Yes, the real question is whether Harry's reverence for the laws is justified or not.

The laws are a creation of the White Council, so it's a safe bet that Harry's reverence is misplaced.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
Samaldin Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#20419: Jan 24th 2024 at 7:11:55 AM

The Laws have an actual metaphysical corruptive effect, even without knowing about the Laws beforehand, so no they aren´t the creation of the Council.

Personally i believe that Laws 1-5 are hardwired into mortal magic and the Council only put them into words. Laws 6+7 i think aren´t inherently corruptive, but "just" extremly dangerous for reality as a whole so the Council grouped them together. I base this on the running theme of Free Will in the series, which Laws 2, 3, and 4 outright work against. 1 just ends Free Will of the target (by killing) and 5 pulls a spirit unwillingly from the afterlife and then overwrites the will of said spirit. Time travel in itself doesn´t affect Free Will directly and neither does opening the Outer Gates (though afterwards the Outsiders will probably mess with it, but that´s a similar loophole to enchanted swords for killing).

allfictions (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#20420: Jan 24th 2024 at 10:17:54 AM

I assume the time travel stuff will be a Mirror Mirror thing.
As far as we know, the time travel book will not be Mirror Mirror, but another book. IIRC, it's supposed to be the last one before the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#20421: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:22:59 PM

I am betting on: Murphy from Alternate Universe joins the regular Dresden World or Murphy gets resurrected in time travel.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#20422: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:26:53 PM

I don't much like what happened to that character but I don't see that as a valid fix either. That doesn't mean I don't think Butcher might do it though.

Samaldin Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#20423: Jan 24th 2024 at 2:40:59 PM

There are easier ways to get said character back into the story, things just have to get dire enough i.e. Odin deciding the situation is bad enough to ignore the stipulation that Murphy may only come back as a valkyre after she has faded from living memory.

Krory Since: Aug, 2012
#20424: Jan 24th 2024 at 3:52:16 PM

Yup. Murph is less 'gone' than 'unavailable.'

TeraChimera Since: Oct, 2010
#20425: Jan 26th 2024 at 1:05:17 PM

In the big fight at the end of Battle Ground, three things are true:

  • Ethniu's Titanic Bronze is psychically-powered armor. It'll protect her from whatever she thinks it will protect her.
  • Harry has a reputation for punching above his weight class, to the point that even a kraken is scared of him.
  • Harry likes being a wiseass, partly to throw his opponents off-balance, partly because he's a wiseass.
And yet, in spite of those, Ethniu is damaged simply by throwing more power at her, not by Harry talking himself and his deeds up to rattle Ethniu, causing her control over her armor to slip and make a Harry-sized hole in it. He could point to the grand opponents he's left in his wake who thought they were invincible, too. He could say that Ethniu picked a fight with the single most cockroach-like person on the planet, to the point that not even death slowed him down. He could even speculate that, as a Starborn, he can damage her armor in ways others can't, just like he can with Outsides. (He doesn't need to be right.) Anything to get Ethniu worried and less sure of her chances. But no. We just get "more power" five or six times in a row.


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