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Rename: : Low Low Fantasy

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berr Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Oct 29th 2010 at 3:48:20 PM

Per discussion here about trying to find a consistent definition for Low Fantasy.

We need to rename Low Low Fantasy, a fairly concrete trope that has little to do with Low Fantasy other than adding to the confusion by its name.

Low Low Fantasy is a (typically book or film) External Retcon of a legendary tale as Historical Fiction. E.g. King Arthur (2004), The Thirteenth Warrior. As such, it has more in common with Magic Realism (which is defined in opposition to Low Fantasy).

The concept itself is sufficiently tropable that I went looking for this one, in preparation for making a ykttw with the exact same examples and similar description. It just needs a better name.

Reimagined As Historic pins down the concept but is a mouthful, I can't say it twice.

edited 29th Oct '10 4:15:53 PM by berr

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Oct 29th 2010 at 3:58:16 PM

Ooh, that's a nice one. I like it.

On edit: darn, I'm thinking: it's an excellent title, but not a noun or noun-phrase; if we want it to line up with the trope names for similar genres, we might have to use it as a redirect.

edited 29th Oct '10 4:18:19 PM by berr

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Oct 29th 2010 at 4:07:04 PM

("the man") Behind The Legend refers to a noun-phrase, sort of, but De Mythologized is more apt. Hmm.

"Behind the Legend... There Was A Man."

edited 29th Oct '10 4:14:21 PM by berr

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5: Oct 30th 2010 at 7:42:58 AM

The technical term for this (at least in the Classics) is Euhemerism, but that's hardly a household word.

I like some variation of Demythologised. Demythologised Myth? Demythologised Legend? Not awesome names, just throwing them out here.

EDIT: Also, how does this type of work have anything to do with Magic Realism? Yes, Magic Realism is thorny as hell to define as a genre, but one of its defining features is that it contains supernatural events (i.e. things that could never happen in our world), whereas the works we're discussing (for example, the film Troy) take a mythological or legendary story and shear all the supernatural off it, substituting realistic causes instead of gods, miracles etc.

edited 30th Oct '10 7:55:06 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#6: Oct 30th 2010 at 11:03:51 AM

I think the similarity between this and Magic Realism is that both are subgenres that represent a more mundane approach to fantasy. Demythologizing makes them mundane by removing the supernatural altogether; Magic Realism makes them mundane by setting them in a recognizably "normal" setting where the magic is presented as something like the weather.

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Camacan from Australiatown Since: Jan, 2001
#8: Oct 30th 2010 at 5:11:03 PM

Low Low Fantasy sounds a bit like Low Fantasy with lots of toilet humour.

I like Demythologised — but I'm a little worried that it looks like Defictionalization.

edited 30th Oct '10 5:14:44 PM by Camacan

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Oct 30th 2010 at 11:58:03 PM

I don't think it's necessary to remove all fantastic elements to meet this trope (Euhemerism), just mask them with plausible deniability... Most examples don't Do In The Wizard entirely, they just inject a bit of Magic Realism into the proceedings. I personally would place them as a Sister Trope, with the distinction being that Magic Realism (the genre) is a mundane setting where there's no magic on the surface but there's sort of an implication that the farther back you go, the less mundane things get. This is sort of the inverse, realistic heroes in a mundane historical setting with a little Magic Realism folded in to tie it together with the modern myth, the magic may come in at the end as a wink to the audience a la "Now You Know The Rest Of The Story..." That's just my impression. There may actually be a lot of fuzzy overlap between the two tropes, but they're two discrete genres so that's ok.

edited 31st Oct '10 12:13:01 AM by berr

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Oct 31st 2010 at 12:11:23 AM

Meta Four, by something like the weather, you mean that Magic Realism the magic may be disguised as something mundane like weather, right?

Because if the magic is as unremarkable as the weather, that's the inverse trope, I think.

edited 31st Oct '10 12:14:39 AM by berr

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#11: Oct 31st 2010 at 12:21:32 AM

I don't think Magical Realism means what you think it means.

The example I was always given of it was Kafka's "Metamorphosis", which involves a guy turning into a bug for no adequately explored reason.

edited 31st Oct '10 12:22:19 AM by RavenWilder

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#13: Oct 31st 2010 at 1:53:10 AM

Raven, I believe that's Absurdism, which I don't think we have a trope for. There's probably some overlap between Absurdism and Magical Realism, but Magical Realism does not require the magical elements to be absurd - quite the opposite, they are often quite subtle. Maybe granny's fine china doesn't talk, she's merely got powers of hallucination. The key is, we never know one way or another. Only a key element may be revealed as magic or mundane and the rest left up to us.

In a previous post I was distinguishing Magic Realism from this trope, which may involve some small amount of Magic Realism. But I was trying to suggest that this trope ("Low Low Fantasy") does not intrinsically require Doing In the Wizard if some other device can be used to inject realism, so I was actually comparing several tropes.

My impression was that Magic Realism is not when explicitly magical stuff happens and is acknowledged by everyone; that's Mundane Fantastic ("yeah, the fairies are out in the barn again") (or Absurdism, if the assumption is implied to be ridiculous, as in Kafka, i.e. the characters really should question the sudden appearance of magic, but don't.) The trope codifier I've always heard given for Magic Realism is Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

What's currently known as Low Low Fantasy may incorporate elements of Magic Realism if the fantastic elements are not explicitly dismissed, but merely overlooked. The difference is of course that Low Low Fantasy is either Doing In the Wizard or Magical Realism (or some other form of dialing-down, such as The Magic Goes Away) applied to a specific setting, to inject realism into a pre-existing story.

If it rains for 100 days after so-and-so dies and its never explained why, that's Magic Realism...

At the end of the movie Troy, Achilles is hit by an arrow in the ankle. We never have proof he's not invulnerable before he's hit in his weak point. That's an example of Magical Realism occurring within a "Low Low Fantasy".

On the other hand, most of the characters pooh-pooh organized (ancient) religion so as to "connect" with modern viewers. But that is a separate phenomenon which I'm sure we have a trope for. It's not really Doing In the Wizard. The outcome of the story certainly still occurs In Mysterious Ways that are nevertheless explicable...

If Achilles were wounded in-story (which occurs in the Iliad) thereby Jossing the myth... or scientific facts (say, Achilles bled out before getting hit in the ankle, or a passing spaceship) were shown to be misinterpreted by onlookers as the work of the gods, that's Doing In the Wizard. The Thirteenth Warrior is an example of that — sort of.

 Hide OT discussion about Magic Realism

On edit: sorry for the elaborate long-winded reply.

edited 19th Nov '10 6:16:04 PM by berr

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Oct 31st 2010 at 3:55:06 AM

Raso — I could see people confusing Deconstructed Fantasy with Fractured Fairy Tale, unfortunately.

Camacan — De Mythology ? Hmm, but the noun seems to imply mythological subject only, whereas the verb Demythologized is accurate, and could apply to any similar retelling.

edited 31st Oct '10 4:48:16 AM by berr

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#15: Oct 31st 2010 at 4:32:45 AM

What about Retroactively Realistic?

Fantasy As History?

I like Demythologized as a title, it's just that all the similar tropes are nouns or adjectival phrases.

edited 31st Oct '10 5:31:04 PM by berr

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#16: Oct 31st 2010 at 4:51:10 AM

@berr, both this wiki and The Other Wiki seem to disagree with you on the definition of magical realism.

From our Magical Realism page:

It definitely isn't Science Fiction and not quite Urban Fantasy and yet... stuff happens. Unlikely stuff like tchotchkes telling the heroine what to do (Wonderfalls) or the ghost of your father showing up at odd intervals to offer personal and/or professional advice (Due South) or perhaps it's just a quirky vibe that infuses the environment (Northern Exposure or better yet, Twin Peaks).

One guideline (just a guideline, not a rule) for distinguishing magical realism from other types of fantasy is that in magical realism, no one controls the magic; there are no wizards. Magic just happens, much like the weather. Also, the "magic" can have alternate explanations. Magical realism is often intentionally vague, and (as in Kafka's The Metamorphosis) it can be hard to determine if the protagonist actually is experiencing magical transformations, or if he's just going insane. Nonetheless there can be no doubt that the story takes place in some sort of mostly normal reality. To sum it up, magical realism is a story that takes place in an ordinary setting (this excludes futuristic space colonies, lost ancient cities et al.), where extraordinary or even impossible things are viewed as normal and thus, nobody really bothers to explain why such things happen.

And from The Other Wiki:

As recently as 2008, magical realism in literature has been defined as "a kind of modern fiction in which fabulous and fantastical events are included in a narrative that otherwise maintains the 'reliable' tone of objective realistic report, designating a tendency of the modern novel to reach beyond the confines of realism and draw upon the energies of fable, folk tale, and myth while maintaining a strong contemporary social relevance. The fantastic attributes given to characters in such novels — levitation, flight, telepathy, telekinesis — are among the means that magic realism adopts in order to encompass the often phantasmagorical political realities of the 20th century."

Both acknowledge the possibility of the fantastical elements being covert, but it is far from a requirement. And supernatural events with no explanation being treated like normal occurances may very well be the defining characteristic of Magical Realism.

edited 31st Oct '10 4:53:23 AM by RavenWilder

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Oct 31st 2010 at 5:15:08 AM

I agree with the definition given on this wiki. The definition given on The Other Wiki covers an entire genre of books, not a trope, so we can't really say that Mundane Fantastic (as defined on this wiki) is a characteristic of the trope, much less the defining characteristic. We may be talking past each other. Points to consider:

  • Magic Realism does not exclude overtly fantastic elements but saying that people accept what they're presented is not the same thing as asserting that it's mundane and an everyday explainable occurrence. Also there's a genre (Absurdism) that predates Magic Realism.

  • If a character dies and it rains meatballs for 100 days, is that Magical Realism?  hide OT discussion

  • Take Levitation:  hide OT discussion

By these examples, if the magic is treated as ubiquitous and functional, it may end up that way within a work in the genre, but doesn't mean it's definitive of Magic Realism the trope. Saying all the characters believe in saints is very different from saying that mythical beings come down and wander the streets every day like Toontown.

edited 31st Oct '10 5:35:49 PM by berr

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18: Oct 31st 2010 at 6:02:50 AM

I'll have to look through this conversation before I can make a useful contribution (or not, since it seems to be turning into another "define Magic Realism" discussion, which I'm not sure I can do), but a nitpick with one of berr's posts: in Troy, Achilles didn't die from getting an arrow in his heel. He got hit by a couple of arrows in vital parts, but someone removed them and was interrupted before they could get to the one in his heel. There was nothing supernatural in that movie (except for the llama in Asia Minor) - it was wholly an example of the trope we're discussing.

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#19: Oct 31st 2010 at 6:20:08 AM

Well, the ankle shot was the first to go in, right? In the myth, Achilles could, in fact be wounded, he just couldn't be killed unless he was hit in the ankle. Never mind the shield, talk about Fridge Logic. In the myth, he was brought down by a poisoned arrow... hmm... yeah. In the film it's left ambiguous as to which arrow killed him (since he removed the others). He is also never injured in the film prior to being struck in the heel, unlike the original oddly enough. So this is actually an inversion of Doing In the Wizard: the film took a case of gangrene and made it slightly ambiguous for continuity.

I don't think this trope requires Doing In the Wizard per se to function (unless this trope were redefind as that trope). But it's fairly common. We got sidetracked because I was pointing out that this trope could use various tools to "dial down" the fantastic.

Assuming Achilles' Heel Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane at the end of the movie Troy, that's just typical of the trope. Your thoughts?

edited 31st Oct '10 5:47:54 PM by berr

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#20: Oct 31st 2010 at 4:19:58 PM

But Magical Realism is a genre (well, technically a subgenre). The exact definition is poorly defined, but I don't see where you're getting that the supernatural elements must be kept hidden behind a veneer of plausible deniability. You say you agree with our wiki's definition, but that only says that Magical Realism can keep the supernatural implicit, not that it must do so.

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#21: Oct 31st 2010 at 4:28:15 PM

I don't think we really disagree, we're just coming at it from different perspectives.

I only brought up Magical Realism because I think just as we can't narrowly say that trope requires magic be implicit, we also can't narrowly say that Euhemerism (as a genre) requires rational explanations be explicit; most examples of the trope aren't very scientific.

For instance, in the film version of LOTR, Peter Jackson specifically said he wanted to model his film as after a spate of Historical Fiction and Low Low Fantasy "epics" that had recently come out. he wanted it to "feel like a historical telling" and dial down the magic. That could be considered a simple case of Darker and Edgier, but I really think it's a borderline case of this (because Middle Earth isn't really a time in the ancient past, but Jackson wanted to make it seem so)

That makes me think, Historical Fantasy might be another name for this trope (a la Historical Fiction).

edited 31st Oct '10 4:32:46 PM by berr

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#22: Oct 31st 2010 at 4:32:15 PM

Realistic Fiction?

...btw, another two cents that Low Low Fantasy is a terrible name, e.g. Lot R is textbook High Fantasy (saving the world) whether or not it gets a "realistic" treatment.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
berr Since: Jan, 2001
#23: Oct 31st 2010 at 4:34:50 PM

oops, Historical Fantasy already exists and is apparently the inverse of this trope, judging from the description.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#24: Oct 31st 2010 at 4:36:10 PM

Historical Fantasy is just fantasy set in a historical setting; the magic can be as subtle or overt as the author wants.

In your comments about Troy, yes, certain events can be interpreted as the work of divine beings. But suppose you went to the movie with no previous knowledge of Greek Mythology or the Trojan War. You'd think it was just a piece of straight-up historical fiction, wouldn't you? That, to me, is the litmus test for determining whether something's Low Low Fantasy or not.

MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#25: Oct 31st 2010 at 4:43:03 PM

For instance, in the film version of LOTR, Peter Jackson specifically said he wanted to model his film as after a spate of Historical Fiction and Low Low Fantasy "epics" that had recently come out. he wanted it to "feel like a historical telling" and dial down the magic. That could be considered a simple case of Darker And Edgier, but I really think it's a borderline case of this (because Middle Earth isn't really a time in the ancient past, but Jackson wanted to make it seem so)
Wow. If that's true, then... Guh...

In Tolkein's version, when Gandalf realized that Saruman was evil, they verbally sparred for a bit, and then Gandalf was quietly imprisoned in the tower. In Jackson's version, they used wizard-fu to fling each other around the chamber until Gandalf lost. In Tolkein's version, the Army of the Dead used fear as their primary weapon—they scared the Corsairs into abandoning the fleet, and then were released from their oath by Aragorn before the Battle of Pellenor Field. In Jackson's version, the Dead Army single-handedly won the Battle of Pellenor Field by slaughtering Mordor's army.

Peter Jackson's LOTR movies were far less subtle about magic than the books were.

AlternativeTitles: LowLowFantasy
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Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.

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