Angel - The Series

Considering they could have easily died, but there was ways they could have survived?

Yup, pretty ambiguous.

That's kinda why I used it as an example when i tried to launch ambiguous Ending.

Juan, your name is capitalized!

I had to sacrifice, like, three virgin goats to Fast Eddie God.

I would have gone with cookies.

Way too hard.

Anyway, yeah, Team Angel totally could've survived that. But if you're asking yourself that, then you're missing the point of the ending.

Exactly.

I wouldn't say Team Angel, as a whole, could survive that. Gunn, in particular, is one foot in the grave already, which makes it Spike, Angel, and Illyria vs. a bolivian army of demons. Spike and Angel are also pretty beat to hell, but they're vampires; they can keep fighting until they Critical Existence Failure. And Illyria is...Illyria. She probably has the best chance of making it out alive of anyone.

Another names for Team Angel: the Fang Gang or the Ministers of Grace (geddit?)

I have a few theories, though they hinge on ignoring the comic line. Which I'm happy to do, anyway.

If you'll notice, Angel absorbs Hamilton's blood in the finale, which theoretically makes him just as invulnerable. Secondly, Angel briskly remarks that the Partners "can't" harm him as long as Connor lives — possibly a loophole in his contract. I like the finale because it leaves those cryptic hints that Angel may survive, even if it's not likely.

I'm really more curious how they would have done things if they weren't forced to squeeze their "Running Wolfram and Hart" arc in the last four/five episodes, which may have lasted another season at the least, maybe til the end of the series. As it is a suprisingly satisfying conclusion to the series, all things considered, largely because they manage to tie in the seemingly random characters and events into the Circle of the Black Thorn arc.

The comic continuation is an interesting view of what would happen, but they are constrained by Gunn's mortal injury, Wesley's death and basically the entire circumstances surrounding the finale.

One of the more badass moments of the series was when Wolfram and Hart were sending fake visions to Cordy (which resulted in physical injuries) and Angel ended up releasing the "Billy" demon so they'll stop. In the exchange, Lilah gave the signil to the psychic to reverse the effects and Angel calmly grabbed a piece of rebar and threw it 50 feet to impale the psychic in the head through a car window. He then made it very clear to Lilah that this is the last time he negotiates when it comes to harming his team. He later told Cordelia that he was aware he can't win every fight and he chose to protect Cordy and deal with Billy later. That entire episode was just expertly written.

(Incidently, I didn't like Billy's return episode much, it was largely an anvilicious anti-misogyny message)

Season 3 was Angel at it's best, TBH.

I wonder what Season 5 would have been like without Charisma's pregnancy. Was the W&H arc planned from the start? Ordinarily I frown on Reset Buttons, but I look back with great fondness on Season 5 for its cleansing the palette of Season 4. It's clear the writers had plans for Cordy and her cryptic god-powers, before her baby necessitated all those changes.

And yet, I don't care. I'm not interested in what might have been; all I remember is Greenwalt leaving the writing staff, and Cordelia devolving into some sort of bitchy Mama Bear with a string of increasingly-stupid haircuts. Cordy has always been the Honest Advisor, granted; but in Season 4 she came off as rude and genuinely conceited. Ironic, since the character has supposedly transcended all that. A scene which best epitomizes this, in my view, is when Cordy returns with Groo after Connor is taken away. Angel is sitting on the stairs, totally despondent, and Cordy starts laying into him.

"Why didn't you call me?"

"You were on vacation. I thought at least one of us should be happ—"

"YOU IDIOT."

Way to make me hate a character, in a single scene no less. Angel's son was taken away and now you're grousing at him for no reason. And this attitude is maintained throughout the rewrite; Cody sleeps with Connor (under duress, I grant you), then goes up to Angel's suite and starts taking the piss out of him for being upset. AGAIN.

I wouldn't necessarily say she's supposed to have transcended all that. Frankly, the fact that becoming a higher being added self-righteous bitchiness to her already bitchy repertoire doesn't surprise me.

I love Cordy to death, but becoming a higher being is just going to make her that much more insufferable. I mean, yeah, it was said that she transcended all that and is better and super and that's why they're doing it, but it was said by Skip as complete and utter bullshit to help bring about Jasmine.

edited 14th Mar '11 8:41:19 AM by TobiasDrake

But that's when she gets possessed, isn't it? Starting with Birthday, that's the last time we see "our" Cordy until the first few episodes of Season 4, and not again until Your Welcome in Season 5. The last half of Season 3 is her evolving into Jasmine — she even starts talking like her towards the end of the season; just look at the scene where she "calms" Connor. That's Jasmine's shit right there.

^ That's half true. But note that the storyline wasn't changed to incorporate her pregnancy until mid-season — hence Cordelia's cryptic glowy light powers and her love triangle with Groo. I take this as evidence that Jasmine can't be waved around as an easy excuse for Cordelia's character derailment that year.

Much of this is due to the Angel/Cordy shipping, which didn't quite work and came off as forced. Especially after having just buried the Wes/Gunn/Fred triangle.

But Jasmine was always going to make an appearance, and Cordy was always going to be evil. Charisma Carpenter's pregnancy just forced Jasmine and Cordy to be separate characters, is all.

Were they always going to write her out of the series, then?

I'm not sure. I do know that Peace Out orginally went differently, with Cordy waking up halfway through the episode and kicking the shit out of Jasmine, but I gather that Charisma wasn't quite up to fight scenes. I think Home (the actual finale) always went the way it goes now, so I guess the plan was to kill her off.

So, yeah, probably.

Angel: "Spike Doesn't Care About Anyone But Himself"

This line from Angel in "Hell Bound" bugs me a lot. Ignoring the fact that Spike at this time has a soul just like Angel, Angel spent a long time with Spike and saw how devoted he was to Drusilla. He saw it again when he reverted back to Angelus on Buffy. Hell, he mocked Spike for his romantic notions as Angelus. So where does he get this idea that Spike is incapable of caring about anyone but himself?

It came from rivalry. Angel doesn't like Spike and was taking the opportunity to shit-talk him. Spike does the same thing to Angel a lot too. It's what makes their relationship so fascinating: the two detest each other but have also been through so much together. Their mutual disdain is highlighted by over a century of familiarity with each other. They're constantly at each other's throats - often for stupid reasons - yet when push comes to shove, they know each other intimately as shown in moments like this scene in "A Hole in the World" when they spot demons charging them.

• Spike: Do you ever have any fun?
• Angel: I'm about to.
• Spike: And they even brought us weapons! Strategy?
• Angel: Just hold my hand.
• Spike: (immediately gets it) St. Petersburg.
• Angel: Thought you'd forgotten.

One sentence and Spike knows exactly what Angel's planning because, as much as they despise each other, they also know each other inside and out. It's a very unique character relationship that neither one really has with any other character on either show.

edited 22nd Jun '16 10:34:05 AM by TobiasDrake

Angel is also kind of jealous of Spike, too, as evidenced by the last episode of Buffy:

• Buffy: [about Spike] It's different. He's different. He has a soul now... What?
• Angel: That's great! Everyone's got a soul now.
• Buffy: He'll make a difference.
• Angel: You know, I started it. The whole having-a-soul. Before it was... all the cool new thing.
• Buffy: Oh my god, are you twelve?
• Angel: I'm getting the brush-off for Captain Peroxide. It doesn't necessarily bring out the champion in me.
• Buffy: You're not getting the brush off. Are you just gonna come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?
• Angel: Aha! [points] Boyfriend!

And, of course, one of the best scenes in either series from "That Girl In Question". Anyone who recognizes the episode title already knows where I'm going with this.

• Angel: I helped save the world, you know.
• Spike: Like I haven't.
• Angel: Yeah, but I've done it a lot more.
• Spike: Oh, please.
• Angel: I closed the Hellmouth.
• Spike: I've done that.
• Angel: Yeah, but you wore a necklace. You know, I helped kill the Mayor, and, uh, Jasmine...
• Spike: Do those really count as saving the world?
• Angel: I stopped Acathla. That saved the world.
• Spike: Buffy ran you through with a sword.
• Angel: Yeah, but I made her do it. I signaled her with my eyes.
• Spike: She killed you. (realizes) And I helped her do it! That one counts as mine.

edited 22nd Jun '16 11:27:42 AM by TobiasDrake

That was a terrible episode, but a great scene.

Of course, the episode was slightly mitigated later on when it's revealed that the woman they are fighting over isn't even Buffy, but one of her body doubles.

Tbh, I kind of feel Angel and Spike were at their most annoying when Buffy was brought up as a reason for their beef.