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Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest
Dec 15th 2009 at 3:40:21 PM

All the other Media fora are doing it, so why not?

Currently waiting for Kingdom Come to get its ass onto the holdshelf so I can check it out. Will it be worth the wait?

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 15th 2009 at 4:17:20 PM

YES. I have no idea why Watchmen is called "true art" while this masterpiece gets the cold shoulder.

Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace
Taller than Zim
Dec 15th 2009 at 11:35:18 PM

I never got what was supposed to be so good about Kingdom Come. It felt incredibly preachy, and while Alex Ross makes amazing posters and covers he tends to be too stiff for actual comics.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
Alkthash Was?
Was?
Dec 15th 2009 at 11:38:35 PM

Just prowling for interest, but would anybody be interested in me livebloging the Necrosha X-Over? I'm thinking of a title along the lines of Necrosha - like Blackest Night, 'cept with Mutants!

Expect equal parts, snark, summary and reactions.

Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace
Taller than Zim
Dec 16th 2009 at 12:01:02 AM

Sure. I'm not reading the X-titles at the moment, so a summary would be nice.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 16th 2009 at 5:36:30 AM

See, here's my thoughts on Kingdom Come: Watchmen represents what went wrong with "serious" comics from the 80's on. Kingdom Come was the cure.

edited 16th Dec '09 6:21:11 AM by Ronnie

EponymousKid Head Lopper from COMPLETE DUST Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Head Lopper
Dec 16th 2009 at 7:59:19 AM

...Watchmen was the original Serious Comic. And Kingdom Come is darkly cynical and fatalist!

Wrestler, bodybuilder. No hopes, no dreams.
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 16th 2009 at 8:00:17 AM

No, Kingdom Come is much more idealist, in theory. Watchmen all but condones Ozy. While Kingdom Come was about how bad that sort of mindset is.

edited 16th Dec '09 8:00:32 AM by Ronnie

EponymousKid Head Lopper from COMPLETE DUST Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Head Lopper
Dec 16th 2009 at 8:34:57 AM

Kingdom Come ends with almost everyone dying and is set in a world where the last World Series was in 2002. It's dark.

Wrestler, bodybuilder. No hopes, no dreams.
Alkthash Was?
Was?
Dec 16th 2009 at 8:35:10 AM

Right, because there totally weren't scenes in the Watchmen where Jon called into question the long term success of Ozy's plan and Rorscharch's journal was mailed to a magazine, in a way that might spark investigation into the whole boondogle. Oh wait, yes there were.

As for Kingdom Come, I love how the older, idealistic heroes end up becoming incredibly fascist in an effort to keep people from breaking their moral code. Where does it lead? A nuclear disaster and people being forced to compromise.

edited 16th Dec '09 8:35:44 AM by Alkthash

Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 16th 2009 at 8:53:33 AM

Well, at least Kingdom Come is a) beautiful and b) ends on a high note.

  • LOATHES DOWNER ENDINGS*

EponymousKid Head Lopper from COMPLETE DUST Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Head Lopper
Dec 16th 2009 at 8:57:39 AM

...Watchmen is also beautiful and also ends on a high note! Society was fixed, there's peace internationally, even the right wing nutjob is eating at Burgers N' Borscht!

Wrestler, bodybuilder. No hopes, no dreams.
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 16th 2009 at 9:48:05 AM

Here is what I personally took away from Watchmen- "Once, there were superheroes. They did horrible things, and got away with it, because the world is full of crap. Except the one who tried to have any morals whatsoever, who got killed. The end." Essentially, morals are a bad thing and trying to keep hold of them in the real world is pointless.

edited 16th Dec '09 9:49:05 AM by Ronnie

Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace
Taller than Zim
Dec 16th 2009 at 10:25:05 AM

Nah, Watchmen works out as idealistic *no matter your ideology* which is the wonderful thing about it: Either the plan triumphs, sacrifices are made but in the end humanity is saved and can go on... Bringing in a new era of harmony and cultural exchange (burgers'n'borscht!) OR the incorruptibel forces of uncompromising rectitude combined with the powers of the Free Press manages to expose the charade and unveil The Truth.

See, either way idealism triumphs!

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
EponymousKid Head Lopper from COMPLETE DUST Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Head Lopper
Dec 16th 2009 at 10:27:00 AM

Only two superheroes did horrible things in Watchmen, and there were never any superheroes, just guys in costumes who beat guys up. It was a different setting.

And if you think Rorschach is moral, hahaha oh wow no offense but goddamn.

Wrestler, bodybuilder. No hopes, no dreams.
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 16th 2009 at 10:41:46 AM

LETTING VEIDT GET AWAY WITH MASS MURDER was a horrible thing. And Rorschach was the only one who stood by it with a "Uh, hay, guyz? Mass murdering's wrong, remember? Kthx-*dies*"

edited 16th Dec '09 11:30:01 AM by Ronnie

Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace
Taller than Zim
Dec 16th 2009 at 11:36:14 AM

Rorshach has absolutely no problems with mass-murdering for the greater good. Remember his musings concerning President Truman?

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
Alkthash Was?
Was?
Dec 16th 2009 at 11:36:41 AM

And ALLCAPS makes your arguments more important?

Ronnie, why are you so intent on ignoring everything that happened besides Veidt pulling off his plan?

EponymousKid Head Lopper from COMPLETE DUST Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Head Lopper
Dec 16th 2009 at 11:42:15 AM

Veidt was wrong, but you'll find that there was nothing they could do about it because he already did it and even if they did out him there was no real evidence to support that he was tied to it, he made sure of that.

And Rorschach is perfectly okay with regular murder, is a crazy misogynist, and sometimes tortures innocent people.

edited 16th Dec '09 11:43:10 AM by EponymousKid

Wrestler, bodybuilder. No hopes, no dreams.
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 16th 2009 at 12:05:02 PM

Oh, yeah, nothing at all. Except, y'know, their corroborated accounts of a personal confession, a very conspicuous arctic base, THE ACTUAL TRIGGER... Jeez.

EponymousKid Head Lopper from COMPLETE DUST Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Head Lopper
Dec 16th 2009 at 12:06:49 PM

Besides, they were clearly going to wait it out to see if his plan worked anyway.

Wrestler, bodybuilder. No hopes, no dreams.
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 16th 2009 at 12:09:03 PM

And that's terrible. "Oh, we'll see if this crazy mass-murderer had a point before we deliver him to justice. Never mind he's killed a couple million people in cold blood."

EponymousKid Head Lopper from COMPLETE DUST Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Head Lopper
Dec 16th 2009 at 12:10:00 PM

Except he was right and if he hadn't done what he did the world would've been in worse shape! And even then, he was still remorseful anyway.

Wrestler, bodybuilder. No hopes, no dreams.
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 16th 2009 at 12:11:18 PM

I'm saying that scale murder is wrong no matter the benefit. It disgusted me on so many levels when I realized there were people who sided with Ozymandias and the others on the issue.

edited 16th Dec '09 12:14:54 PM by Ronnie

Dec 16th 2009 at 1:22:42 PM

Essentially, morals are a bad thing and trying to keep hold of them in the real world is pointless.
While that is an accurate assessment of the real world, I'm not seeing it in Watchmen world. Veidt wanted to save the world, after all. As a nihilist, I think that's a ridiculous goal. That's the sort of bullshit only a moralist could come up with.

I never got what was supposed to be so good about Kingdom Come. It felt incredibly preachy,
I get the impression Alex Ross has a pretty damn large choir of people just as bitter and nostalgic as he is.


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