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neobowman つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX from Unidentified Proxy Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX
#451: Jan 1st 2013 at 9:53:55 AM

^ Can't read spoilers but that's something I never thought Arha would say.

AceNoctali A lil' bentô ? from France Since: Nov, 2009
A lil' bentô ?
#452: Jan 1st 2013 at 6:32:16 PM

So everyone, one of the games I've got this Christmas is the "Clannad Best Version: Key's 3 Works Premium Box", on PS 2 (which contains Air, Kanon, and Clannad).

Asking just in case: of the three, Clannad is, out of the three, the one I really want to play first, but I won't miss too much, aside from a few Shout Outs, if I don't play Air and Kanon before, correct?

"Your kindness gives me the presentiment I can be reborn. Now, I want to believe at least in you." - Kaori Yae
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#453: Jan 1st 2013 at 6:36:03 PM

I don't really remember any Kanon references in Clannad. Their are a couple similar situations but nothing I would really call a shout out. I haven't read or watched Air.

Also, it's something called the oppai ending in an entirely clean VN. I think only one route actually had a sexual relationship. Therefore, it's not erotic and I can hope that it's hilarious since I know vaguely what it must be about.

edited 1st Jan '13 6:55:09 PM by Arha

PluralForce Since: May, 2010
#455: Jan 7th 2013 at 8:18:08 PM

New person joining the thread here. I just finished Little Busters this afternoon and I absolutely loved it. Easily one of my favorites. I think this is the first VN I've played where I genuinely liked all of the heroine routes, and damn but Refrain killed me.

I never did win that baseball game, though. Or beat Mask the Saito. Welp, guess that means another playthrough is in order at some point.

Planning to tackle Clannad next. I normally hate romance, but playing Little Busters has changed my mind (though I maintain that one was about friendship and not romance as such). Wish me luck— hopefully I'll be able to finish it by the end of the semester.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#456: Jan 7th 2013 at 8:22:37 PM

Not every route of Clannad is focused around romance. I'd say that at least four aren't: Fuuka, Sunohara, Yukine for the most part and that old guy.

Also, if nothing else, it's funny.

PluralForce Since: May, 2010
#457: Jan 8th 2013 at 1:19:23 AM

[up]I'll keep that in mind. I did figure that a game that massively long had to have some other elements in there besides romance :P Otherwise it wouldn't be as popular as it is. I'm just not usually a fan of the genre in general so I've avoided it until now.

I need to go back to Little Busters and play Refrain again before I get around to that, though, and possibly the common route as well. Now that I actually know what's going on I'll be able to pay attention to the details. I'm pretty sure there were things I missed in Refrain the first time around, though I'm not sure whether that was due to not knowing what was going on or because it was 3 in the morning.

...and, honestly, I liked Little Busters so much that I'm having trouble switching to something else. XD

Einander Since: Jul, 2010
#458: Jan 8th 2013 at 10:57:26 AM

[up] If you have a save at the beginning of Rin2, or just before it, go back and read the first scene. It's the one about old cats. (You may remember that it wasn't in Rin1.) Read between the lines and you'll understand why everything before Refrain works as it does, particularly why routes close and why only the Little Busters and Komari seem to appear in heroine routes. It's also why Kurugaya appears in Komari's route if you do Komari's route before hers, but not if you do it afterward.

That's the big thing I always tell people to go back and see. The other is the Rin ending to Refrain, which you can get anyway if you're rereading it. Keep an eye out for new choices near the end; it's shortly before "It's enough, isn't it?"

PluralForce Since: May, 2010
#459: Jan 8th 2013 at 3:24:11 PM

[up]Hahaha wow. I already knew about the other ending, but thanks for pointing out that scene, I wouldn't have noticed it otherwise.

By the way, is there something else I have to do in order to get the School Revolution watch so I can beat Mask the Saito, or is it just a matter of luck? Kurugaya is refusing to give it to me. (EDIT: Nevermind, I managed to get it. Took a while, though.)

edited 8th Jan '13 4:53:29 PM by PluralForce

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#460: Jan 11th 2013 at 8:46:37 PM

You know, come to think of it, adapting Rewrite to a manga or anime would be a real bitch wouldn't it? The routes aren't even the slightest bit compatible. You couldn't do what Clannad or Kanon did and just do everything in a single run. Ugh, Terra route really needs to come out soon. Honestly? I kind of doubt the story is going to get a super happy ending but I still need to see it all get wrapped up.

It's weird that I didn't catch Kotori's mom using -san on her daughter at the beginning.

edited 11th Jan '13 9:05:38 PM by Arha

ashnazg Since: Dec, 2009
#461: Jan 11th 2013 at 10:10:56 PM

[up]They could go with the omnibus format like Amagami.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#462: Jan 11th 2013 at 10:29:41 PM

They didn't do it with Little Busters. I can only assume anime writers hate the idea.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#463: Jan 16th 2013 at 5:42:13 AM

Shizuru's route has what I can only assume is interesting foreshadowing. I'm getting the feeling that not only is Kotarou the same age as Nishikujou (they recognize the same songs as being part of their childhood and even Kotori and Shizuru don't recognize those songs) but that she might have been in love with him at an earlier point in time. Perhaps she tries to keep him off the front lines not because he isn't suited for it (Chihaya and Akane's route shows that that is ridiculous) but because she doesn't want him to get hurt like he apparently was years ago when Kotori revived him. Or, since Kotarou and Kotori note that he used to be different, she doesn't want him to to have to change into that person again.

Imamiya and Esaka added to that make me think he was flat out part of Guardian. The first acts like he knows Kotarou and Kotarou feels that he's familiar and in Akane's route Imamiya looks betrayed when he sees him in Gaia. Esaka, on the other hand, let his guard slip too much in front of Kotarou and seemed really surprised to see him. In fact, I think in Akane's route he remembers a little girl Akane, but then the story quickly moves past that. It seems like she invited him into the club because she knew he had an ability all along, but if he did know her when she was little that implies something more. Given that Sakuya is unaging, might Kotarou not be the same as well? He's not full blown tree man yet but he's getting close.

Looking forward to Moon even more.

Edit: Unrelated to that but why do my two favorite heroines get the worst endings?

edited 16th Jan '13 10:36:41 AM by Arha

Einander Since: Jul, 2010
#464: Jan 16th 2013 at 1:06:56 PM

[up] Interesting theory. The part that I don't get is this:

If Kotarou was older before he died, then what the heck happened with his paperwork, and who are the people he thinks of as his parents? If he used to be older, then this suggests that being made into a familiar somehow made him regress in age. Akane's paperwork in Chihaya's route backs up his "used his powers as a child" story, and there's no mention of a giant time gap between that Kotarou and this one, so it had to have happened after he was familiarized. Even if that happened, though, he'd have no birth certificate, no parents or guardians, and no legal identity. If he ever mentioned being adopted, then I'd find the theory a lot more plausible. If Kotori was his stepsister, then it'd be even more likely. (Thank goodness we dodged that bullet, though. Not Blood Siblings is awful.) It's downright odd that he'd think about how distant he and his parents are and never, ever bring up his adoption, though, which suggests they really are related.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#465: Jan 16th 2013 at 1:23:30 PM

Well, if we assume Guardian knows and that they decided this was just time for him to retire they might have fixed that. After all, he was basically killed in action. They mention other Rewrite users who died young, which might be how they list him. The Kotarou who woke up after Kotori saved him decided to redo his life and didn't have strong memories of himself as a child. Since Guardian is too soft for their own good maybe he just became one of those KIAs so that he could be happier. He led a shallow, unhappy life before from what I can tell. Also, remember, he just thinks he had some sort of illness. His memories are pretty vague.

As for his age not changing, well, Sakuya's age doesn't change either. The people he things of as his parents might be exactly that. But remember, they work for Gaia. Wouldn't that explain why they don't seem to give a shit about him? "Well, okay son, we won't kill you since you're not an enemy anymore... but we still don't like you. You blood traitor." Thus the people he remembers as his parents really are his parents. For Akane's paperwork it says it's something he did in elementary school. It doesn't say when elementary school was. Personally, I think that his Rewrite power is something he always had. He only got aurora after Kotori saved him using the Key. If that's the case, his overuse of the ability is probably the reason he doesn't age. Just like Sakuya.

Einander Since: Jul, 2010
#466: Jan 16th 2013 at 3:51:57 PM

Actually, it's never stated that Kotarou's parents work for Gaia. They work for Gaia's front organization, which does employ a number of legitimate scientists — they need to carry out enough research to convincingly exist as an environmental advocacy group, after all. He never encounters them during Akane's route, and they're never really brought up at any point in other routes. The fact he dropped out and started working as the bodyguard to the company heir/president is apparently of no real concern to them. I guess that could count as evidence that they work for Gaia? Who knows.

If Kotarou's accident happened long enough ago that Akane was very young (as would fit the brief picture we see during Akane's route), then we can assume that the reborn Kotarou attended at least late elementary school, so around sixth grade. Kotarou not growing at all during middle school and his first year of high school would be weird enough to draw some comment. On the other hand, he wasn't close to anyone who wasn't Kotori, who already knew something was up. Rewrite is almost certainly something Kotarou had naturally, yeah. Aurora comes from the Key's ribbon.

Hmm. I guess my feeling on that is, "There are a lot of weird little things, and the theory fits some of them, but it introduces just as many weird things." If:

  • 1) Kotarou's current parents work for Gaia, and
  • 2a) They are his real parents and they're willing to continue to take care of him, or
  • 2b) They're able to convince him they're really related, and
  • 3) Kotarou was close to Akane before his death, and
  • 4) Gaia is willing to go to very great lengths to have him taken care of for her sake, and
  • 5a) Kotarou's use of Rewrite froze his age at exactly the right age to attend elementary, middle, AND early high school, or
  • 5b) Kotarou aged backwards once revived and is now aging normally again, and
  • 6a) Gaia altered all of Kotarou's old paperwork to fit his new age, or
  • 6b) Gaia created entirely new paperwork for Kotarou (if that's even your real name, Mr. Protagonist)

...then the theory works. But if even one of these is untrue, then it drops. And it strikes me that this means going an awfully long way to explain "Some characters are oddly suspicious and protective of Kotarou, Kotarou recognizes an old song, and he had a flashback to Akane as a child." You could just as easily explain it by a previous meeting, only without Kotarou being older. If you knew someone as a child, you're more likely to think of them as a child, after all.

I kind of want this to be a true theory, though. Any flashbacks with Original Kotarou would be much more interesting if he was an adult.

edited 16th Jan '13 3:57:38 PM by Einander

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#467: Jan 16th 2013 at 4:08:21 PM

  1. Step one is easy. They work for Martel. Working for Martel gives a high likelihood of working for Gaia.
  2. Step two the easiest answer is that they really are related. If they're not then there's definitely a conspiracy of some sort.
  3. Three, we see little girl Akane in his memories in Akane route didn't we?
  4. Four, on the other hand, seems irrelevant. It's not for Akane's sake that they left him alone when he was growing up. Why should they care about him? Akane knowing him is simply why she bothered to try to get in contact with him after he broke into her office.
  5. Five... I don't know. You've got me there.
  6. Six, Guardian would be the ones who would mess with his paperwork. Guardian is way too soft on its recruits as should be pretty obvious by how lenient they are, how they distribute staff (Lucia needs a mommy figure! Let's send her to this Nishikujou person and let her feel important! Also, let's pay everyone ten million yen a year straight after recruitment) and how informal they are. If Kotarou was a member effectively KIA I don't see why they wouldn't juggle his paperwork. They're better at that than Gaia anyway.

The major stumbling block is how he was able to go to elementary and middle school without drawing suspicion. Everyone else seems to be pretty easy to take care of. Also, why even bring forward random things like him recognizing a song that isn't part of his apparent generation but rather that of the previous one? Why should Imamiya go out of his way to help some kid or look betrayed when he joins Gaia? Why give us a first meeting with Akane and then not develop it?

I thought up another hole in my argument last night but I can't remember what it was!

edited 17th Jan '13 11:51:30 AM by Arha

Einander Since: Jul, 2010
#468: Jan 25th 2013 at 12:27:43 PM

The final Rewrite patch is out.

Looking forward to seeing how your theory plays out, Arha.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#469: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:21:51 PM

Reading through Moon. This isn't supposed to be making us like her right? ...Maybe, maybe not.

Done Moon. I hope Terra spends more time on Kagari because I don't like her yet and I think I need to if I want to enjoy this properly. And apparently, yes, Kotarou is older than he thought.

Terra: Apparently Kotarou has always been a little divided when it comes to the Gaia/Guardian ideological clash. And he really did always wish he was more social. Good things to know. I hope the little kid he bumped into was a little Yoshino. I guess Yoshino would have treated Kotarou oddly if that were the case though.

edited 25th Jan '13 5:13:38 PM by Arha

neobowman つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX from Unidentified Proxy Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX
#470: Jan 25th 2013 at 5:51:06 PM

Time to download rewrite.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#471: Jan 25th 2013 at 6:32:00 PM

Rewrite is huge. That's going to take you awhile.

Well, this explains why Nishikujou seemed genuinely surprised to see Kotarou's ability was rewrite. Even he didn't know it back then because he avoided using it much.

UltimatelySubjective Since: Jun, 2011
#472: Jan 25th 2013 at 6:34:34 PM

Yeah. I regret not downloading it before the patch was complete.

At least there's a torrent. Otherwise it's like 30 files direct download.

neobowman つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX from Unidentified Proxy Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX
#473: Jan 25th 2013 at 6:55:37 PM

0_o. How long is it? Or just cuz of good graphics?

I'm extra interested in rewrite because it features my favourite youtube artist XD.

Einander Since: Jul, 2010
#474: Jan 25th 2013 at 6:57:05 PM

[up] I'd probably call it... Maybe ten hours on the common route, about 5-8 hours for each of the five heroine routes, three hours for Moon, and Terra is probably about eight hours (though I think I'm about halfway through it right now). So about forty hours. The disc size is partially because it's in HD, IIRC.

(edit edit: Wow, counting. The numbers given put it more at about 60 hours, which is a bit high. Probably closer to 50.)

Moon was really good. I really like the kind of atmosphere they cultivated. I don't think they really needed to focus on Kagari; while she was the one he outwardly focused on, I think they front-loaded the "I've always acted like that around other people for myself" for a reason. Who she is doesn't matter so much as how she makes him feel, and they focus on the story they need to tell. Moon is much more economical than most visual novel stories, and as someone who grew up loving Saga Frontier 2, I'll always have a special place in my heart for minimalism.

I absolutely love the concept of "Acquired Character," too. The idea that the world consciously reuses and recycles archetypes after apocalypses is great, and it makes the Sakuya-Kotarou relationship even better. Imagine what it'd be like to walk through a world where, despite the changes, so many archetypes and basic concepts were the same! That would be so amazingly surreal.

Terra... Definitely a slower start, but the use of choices is great, especially after how Moon ends. Especially the completely meaningless choices during the first part of the Esaka spar, which makes it even more clear what the highlighted choices are and why they show up where they do. I'm about halfway through it, just past the point where you can get the bad end. I'm glad they let you get that bad end; it's obvious enough without it, but it really makes it clear how Terra connects to the canon for the common/heroine/Moon routes. And the music while Kotarou is overseas really sells this section.

By the way, Arha, on your theory... Congrats, you totally called it. Very nicely done. It makes the Guardian routes a lot more bittersweet in hindsight.

edited 25th Jan '13 7:02:38 PM by Einander

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#475: Jan 25th 2013 at 7:04:16 PM

I'm at about the same part you are. The timeline split thing is interesting. Kotarou the mercenary. Imamiya and Nishikujou assuming he sucks at combat makes more sense now. It's not that they were trying to keep him uninvolved out of pure sympathy but rather that so far as they knew he really did suck.

So Kagari is a troll. Unexpected. And also kind of a dick. And I guess this means that only Lucia and maybe Akane got 'good' endings before. Lucia's ending has tech being developed to survive the end of the world and Akane has a pocket of humanity flee. Shizuru's route may be okay if the Earth skips re evolution and lets humanity just build itself back up instead.

edited 25th Jan '13 7:56:40 PM by Arha


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