I was just driving into work when I heard someone on the radio echo the last couple pages. It went something like: “Avatar supports white liberals in that it’s about a white guy who is accepted by non-whites and ascends to become a leader figure for them.” also “Nature only intervenes to save the white guy and his girl friend after all the non-whites are dead”. The guy actually sounded less like a douche than those two sentences make him out to be.
He also pointed out that it’s basically impossible to make a black character in Dragon Age and that there are no blacks in the Lord Of The Rings movie despite the fact that females roles are elevated in importance in the film (my counter to this is that there’s no blacks in the books, so a character’s race would need to be changed or a character added to make a Minoriteam).
This guy’s obvious agenda aside, I found it interesting that someone else out there was coming to some similar conclusions. I don’t think this was really Cameron’s intention when he made the film, but given that the film is looking more and more like wish fulfillment, maybe it was done a little subconsciously.
edited 22nd Jan '10 9:28:26 AM by Justice4243
Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.What? No. My current playthrough is as a black female dwarf noble. Further, Lord of the Rings is set in what is basically a fantasy version of medieval Europe, so it's not at all surprising or inappropriate that everyone is white. Tolkein also wrote before the term "Political Correctness" even existed.
That guy is an idiot.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary GygaxMostly, because if it wasn’t for the movie/book/series/whatever, the fans wouldn’t exist. Also, it's easier to hate a concrete thing like a movie than a pack of faceless persons. Of course, I don’t dislike *because* of the fans, I just dislike more when they are in the picture.
Now. I really don’t see the Na’vi as a perfect Mary Sue race, whatever definition you’d like to give the term. I was doing ok in relation to them (which means I was perfectly indifferent to them as I was to the human side of the battle) until right before the… hm… sex scene, I guess. When the Blue Romantic Interest (there’s no way I know her name) says something along the line of “you now can choose your wife”.
Choose? The man can freaking choose whoever female member he likes?
Now you lost me, James Cameron. You really did.
edited 22nd Jan '10 1:20:47 PM by audrey
if i had something clever to say here, i'd sell it^^^ I’m not sure if the guy was attacking Tolkein or not, but I did think his argument about the movies was pretty silly.
^^ I remember that part, funny how it hasn’t been mentioned until now. I think people dismiss it because the character does the obvious thing at that point, not to mention the blue elf sex that follows.
edited 22nd Jan '10 12:08:23 PM by Justice4243
Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.Uh, audrey, the very next significant thing Jake says is on the order of "but she has to choose me, too."
So the guy can ask any unattached girl he wants to become his lifetime bang buddy, but she has to be into it, too. I've seen stranger mating rituals, like the one where guys go to a nearby village and kidnap the girl they like.
Nitpicking a line out of an entire movie as the make-or-break basis for not liking it is kinda silly, isn't it? Especially when you're not quite remembering it correctly.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary GygaxI do remember it correctly. He says something like “but she has to choose me too” and the Blue Romantic Interest responds “I already did” or other. And they... traumatize me for life.
Anyway, my interpretation of the scene was that this kind of exchange wasn’t necessary. The Hero only asked the “permission” of the Na’vi Girl because, well, he’s the hero. The way I saw it, if he had said “well, I want that cute blue girl with the long hair that was on the second scene” no one would care if the cute blue girl was okay with the arrangement, because it was ultimately man’s choice.
That’s why the Blue Romantic Interest was pretty much listing every girl he could “choose” that were in the right age to marriage.
if i had something clever to say here, i'd sell itThat's reaching. What part of "She needs to choose me, too" is misleading? You're inserting sexism where it only exists if you make other justifications. He didn't say "I would only choose a mate if she were cool with it, because, like, you know, I'm cool like that," he said that there was a requirement that the female approves. Since we see no other examples of Na'vi mating rituals, we can only assume that this is done properly.
I can only imagine that the pandora wiki could clear this up, but I can't access it from work.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary GygaxExactly. *He* said. He said that he wanted the girl to love him back. Because he was human (in blue form, but still human) and in Earth you kind of expect a guy to give the option of saying ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to a girl. His behavior was the expected in a situation like that.
I remember I was under the impression that the Na’vi were, at least, a neutral society, since the girls could hunt and get their own flying dragon and all. Until that scene. The only thing passed to us about Blue People Mating Rituals was this dialogue. Sure, we know they mate for life, and that he Blue Romantic Interest was suppose to marry the other Blue Warrior, but how they get together? Not specified.
For me, and my whole lot of college teacher would agree with me, the way you say something is sometimes more important than what you say. She didn’t ask him to “think about finding a wife” or to “ask someone to be his wife”. She said “choose”. In my book, every time a man can choose a woman, she’s not going to be left with a lot of choice…
Maybe that was not the way the scene was suppose to be played, but it was how it seemed to me at the time.
if i had something clever to say here, i'd sell itI see what Audrey is saying. He said that she has to choose him too, she did not. She's the one that's been teaching him about their culture, and thus is our authority on the subject. So the fact that she only mentions that he has to choose is significant. The point is that it sounds like he's saying this out of his personal preference, not what is the standard for navi culture, which he wouldn't know. If the subject had come up before, she wouldn't have to explain it.
The Unfortunate Implications are probably unintentional, though, based on how perfect the movie seems to want us to think the navi are.
Any "Unfortunate implications" are probably unintentional, yes. The thing is, in interviews, Cameron tends to say that he didn't see them until after the fact. And while I think that's at least MOSTLY true because Cameron is a pretty good director, it's really hard to believe that throughout the whole process he never realized (Or no one told him) about his Mighty Whitey, Noble Savage, and "Pick your bride".
He seems like he really fell in love with his Na'vi creations almost to a creepy level and couldn't really see any issues with them. Much like a lot of bad fanfiction writers and their Mary Sue/Wish Fulfillment characters and races.
I had a fridge brilliance moment about "Eywa" or whatever it's called. They think it cared about the Na'vi. I think it was self-preservation. It doesn't get off it's tail and send in the calvary until it seems that it might actually get bombed. I don't think it even cared about the Na'vi, hence letting them get killed. It was only when IT was in danger that it acted.
Also...IF there's a sequel, awesome news I read about our favorite Colonel Badass: Stephen Lang, who played Colonel Miles Quaritch, believes his character could make a return: "You think those two arrows in my chest are going to stop me from coming back?" Lang told Entertainment Weekly, "Nothing's over so long as they've got my DNA."
Hopefully, the second movie will be when the Marines come in full-force for a Curb-Stomp Battle, maybe even with a "Downer Ending" for the Na'vi, showing that being Xenophobic and uncompromising are no better than being pushy and militaristic. And that a Deus ex Machina tree isn't going to be able to protect them forever...
Because, for me, one of the biggest things is that in the end, NO ONE LEARNED ANYTHING. The Na'vi still think it works to be stubborn and unwilling to adapt to new situations or negotiate. And the Humans now have a reinforced belief Violence Is the Only Option against the Na'vi...
We can all learn something from the Legend of Zelda and it's triforce, Power is nothing without the courage and wisdom to make use of it...Pandora's a Genius Loci.
Also, I actually think Avatar would be better off as an RTS.
INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.I'm increasingly certain that my positive impression of the film is due largely to avoiding Word of God and supplementary material concerning it.
I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard. Duke Nukem Colonel Quaritch REALLY should have been in a different film.
tl;dr
I had a thought: Would the people rooting for the humans because the Navi were unlikeable be comparable to the European imperialists? 'Cos that was the attitude back then, that the conquered races were savages who deserved to be put down and the Europeans could make better use of the resources the savages were sitting on top of.
Has this question been brought up yet, 'cos then I'd feel really stupid...
I'm of the mindset that "I don't care if you project a Humans Are Bastards image; just make them as Badass as possible".
Personally I'd like a sequel or a fanfic showing that the Na'vi are flawed.
edited 23rd Jan '10 9:11:11 PM by Kinkajou
INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.Oh yes, I suppose the Noble Savage idealization would be irritating. But the impression I've been getting from some people was that they were flawed, and it showed (intentionally on the writers' part).
Maybe I should just watch it >__>
I get the feeling the perfection is mostly due to a all-around lack of characterization, although there's probably some traces of Invincible Sparkly People Syndrome.
http://autotelic.com/avatar_-_the_metacontextual_edition
The above post seems to cover every major criticism that people have had with the movie, along with some lesser known ones, but also does it in an entertaining manner.
I was actually bored of the film, and I felt what killed it was a dull protagonist that never had any deep conflict at all.

I have a hard time believing that the Na'vi are Mary Sues. Most people can't even agree on what the term means, but on top of that, the Na'vi aren't perfect. Tsu'tey is kind of an ass, for example. Further, they're all woefully out-matched by the mercinaries; it's not like they won any of the engagements. Wouldn't a race of Mary Sues just massacre the corporate forces?
Finally, it's bizarre to me that someone can claim that, in this movie, Whitey is Mighty in one breath and that the Na'vi are Mary Sues in the very next. So... which is it? How can the American guy be better than an entire race of perfect blue cat people?
The cognitive dissonance involved with fans and foes of this movie is so weird. No wonder people are facinated by it.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary Gygax