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Avatar (James Cameron film)

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Pretty_Angel Since: Oct, 2009
#451: Jan 21st 2010 at 12:25:19 PM

You're half right. It is fanservice, but it's not that American whites want to believe that they're the best, it's just that we identify best with someone who looks and acts like us.
But this is exactly what is wrong with the US and the entertainment industry. It trains its audience to focus on the white straight male hero - all the freakin time! The notion that the audience needs to identify with exactly that kind of protagonist is annoying at best.

But here's a secret: You do not need to have the same skin-colour or gender to identify with a character. This is something that everyone who's not a white straight male (aka the majority of people in probably every country worldwide) is learning from a very early age. But white straight males -especially those who run the business- keep this system going and are brainwashing you with the idea that you as a white guy would be too stupid to identify some other kind of protagonist.

Jake at the beginning is just another brick in the wall. By the end he's a heroic leader. How can you say he doesn't change?
Apart from the fact that this is the most annoying shit in this movie, it's not actually character development. Jake's character development stops at the very moment he enters his Avatar - which is like 15 min into the movie or something. From that time on he's all like "zomg running around in an Avatar is fun! whoohoo!!" Everything he does is just contributing to that notion: The company got him the Avatar - so he tells them stuff about the Na'vi. While they where in that mobile base he was having so much fun with his Avatar that he completely forgot about his mission - or at least tried to warn the Na'vi or something. And then he fought against the humans because they where ruining his fun! In the end he became the leader and can continue having fun as an Avatar. Whohoo! <_<

edited 21st Jan '10 12:25:36 PM by Pretty_Angel

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#452: Jan 21st 2010 at 12:41:47 PM

a white straight male (aka the majority of people in probably every country worldwide)

uh what

Justice4243 Writer of horse words from Portland, OR, USA Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Brony
Writer of horse words
#453: Jan 21st 2010 at 12:43:49 PM

China LIED to me!

Edit: On closer inspection, I believe the original statement is establishing that most countries are PROBABLY not populated by a white, male majority...

...probably.

edited 21st Jan '10 12:50:06 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.
Dracomicron Since: Jan, 2001
#454: Jan 21st 2010 at 1:09:32 PM

You are correct, you don't need to have a white male to identify with, but it is the easiest way to attract the largest audience in the most important markets... the young white males to identify with the protagonist, the young females to squee at how handsome and viable he is. Everyone else to watch anyway to see what the ruckus is about.

Now, taking issue with going with the most marketable option is perfectly reasonable, but, honestly, in a culture where success is measured by dollars, I have a hard time blaming Cameron for stacking the deck, especially when dealing with some of the hardest science fiction we've seen in some time (generally an unsexy genre).

edited 21st Jan '10 1:09:40 PM by Dracomicron

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary Gygax
Pretty_Angel Since: Oct, 2009
#455: Jan 21st 2010 at 1:11:34 PM

@Fawriel: you overlooked the NOT in that sentence lol.

@Dracomicron: White straight males are a minority in every country on this planet. They are not catering to the majority of people. And ever noticed that a lot of girls are complaining about Avatar?

edited 21st Jan '10 1:13:47 PM by Pretty_Angel

Dracomicron Since: Jan, 2001
#456: Jan 21st 2010 at 1:37:42 PM

I haven't noticed that a lot of girls are complaining about Avatar, actually, because I only pay attention to genderless internet usernames complaining about Avatar.

So girls are complaining about Avatar?

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary Gygax
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#457: Jan 21st 2010 at 1:47:05 PM

I could venture a guess as to why. It just seems a bit too obvious.

Can't gauge from friends of mine who have seen it, as the responses range from "It was cool" to "Eh."

edited 21st Jan '10 1:47:51 PM by GoggleFox

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
Ronnie Respect the Red Right Hand from Surrounded by Idiots Since: Jan, 2001
Respect the Red Right Hand
#458: Jan 21st 2010 at 1:51:33 PM

People I know range it from "Good movie" to "Best movie ever". I personally am between, with the statement it's the most visually beautiful movie ever. The plot is an excuse for the Scenery Porn.

Pretty_Angel Since: Oct, 2009
#459: Jan 21st 2010 at 2:06:57 PM

@Dracomicron: Actually, yes, it seems so. The majority of people I've encountered complaining about the lack of story and the shallowness of Jake's character or those who were analysing the movie in social context were in fact female. I think it was when someone on Rotten Tomatoes started complaining that yet another chick was giving it a bad rating that I started to have a closer look on who was actually writing what kind of movie review. I know it's a subjective observation, but still...

Dracomicron Since: Jan, 2001
#460: Jan 21st 2010 at 2:20:53 PM

I know a couple of women who haven't seen the movie, and refuse to see it because of the fact that it's straight-white-male-centric. Of course, these two also think that Supernatural is only good if you look at it through the lens that the brothers are gay for each other.

On the other hand, my little sister, who is intelligent, educated, and has good taste, thinks that Avatar is great for what it is and fantastically entertaining; she doesn't expect it to be Hamlet.

edited 21st Jan '10 2:21:39 PM by Dracomicron

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary Gygax
Pretty_Angel Since: Oct, 2009
#461: Jan 21st 2010 at 2:23:57 PM

So what? I didn't say all girls dislike Avatar, did I?

Dracomicron Since: Jan, 2001
#462: Jan 21st 2010 at 2:27:56 PM

What, you can make a subjective observation that doesn't mean anything, but I can't? evil grin

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary Gygax
Pretty_Angel Since: Oct, 2009
#463: Jan 21st 2010 at 2:41:31 PM

Of course not! lol

Na, the problem is it doesn't provide much of a counter argument... so yeah...

Dracomicron Since: Jan, 2001
#464: Jan 21st 2010 at 2:52:27 PM

We're arguing? I'm just making conversation. tongue

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary Gygax
Echospeed from USA Since: Aug, 2009
#465: Jan 21st 2010 at 3:06:15 PM

I gave up on arguing about the movie. There are some die-hard crazy fanboys and fangirls out there that will defend it without any real logic, calling it "Great" and "Revolutionary" without really saying why aside from "The CGI was amazing". If anyone is given enough money and time with FX studios, they can do that. It's nothing special to me.

I'm still a firm believer that a cliche, shallow, anvilicious, and outright pretentious plot about a race of Mary Sues is something that should be considered inexcusable no matter how flashy the animation is.

I'm still waiting for the day when movies will go back to a good plot instead of having to be a massive-budget FX machine to be considered a good movie...

edited 21st Jan '10 3:07:33 PM by Echospeed

We can all learn something from the Legend of Zelda and it's triforce, Power is nothing without the courage and wisdom to make use of it...
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#466: Jan 21st 2010 at 3:52:10 PM

@Fawriel: you overlooked the NOT in that sentence lol.
oh.

... It was still very ambiguous! Claims I.

Sparkysharps Since: Jan, 2001
#467: Jan 21st 2010 at 4:01:40 PM

So girls are complaining about Avatar?

Well, unless I have magically grown testicles overnight, I would have to say that yes, (some, because I don't think the Hive Vagina actually exists) girls are complaining about Avatar — and not just from a feminist perspective (Oh God, the amount of Mighty Whitey and Noble Savage in that film is painful considering that Cameron's claims that it's about cultural tolerance and respecting each other's differences)

edited 21st Jan '10 4:03:34 PM by Sparkysharps

MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#468: Jan 21st 2010 at 4:17:03 PM

Me: A shallow, derivative story is to be expected, but I don't think lowering our standards is the right response. Hollywood is perfectly capable of making big action films with nuance (and without insulting the viewer's intelligence), so asking Hollywood to stop being lazy and/or ham-handed isn't that unreasonable.

Woolie Wool: Maybe they could 30 years ago, but they can't anymore, unless it's a novel adaptation, and even then only sometimes.
The Dark Knight and The Incredibles would like a word with you.

Don't ever go into a movie theater expecting anything intelligent and you'll never be disappointed. I certainly enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than the previous movie I saw at a theater, Sweeney Todd, which wasn't just dumb but actively infuriated me with the hideous, drab cinematography and obnoxious show tunes.
That is certainly a valid opinion to have. That still doesn't make "Avatar is not as smart as it advertised itself to be" any less of a valid criticism.

Ronnie Respect the Red Right Hand from Surrounded by Idiots Since: Jan, 2001
Respect the Red Right Hand
#469: Jan 21st 2010 at 4:29:31 PM

Sweeney Todd, which wasn't just dumb but actively infuriated me with... obnoxious show tunes.

..did you just insult an adaptation of a broadway musical for being a musical?

edited 21st Jan '10 4:35:31 PM by Ronnie

WoolieWool Heading for tomorrow Since: Jan, 2001
Heading for tomorrow
#470: Jan 21st 2010 at 8:31:24 PM

I'm still waiting for the day when movies will go back to a good plot instead of having to be a massive-budget FX machine to be considered a good movie...

I wouldn't hold my breath. Movies are too expensive these days for the executives to take serious risks with. If you really want a great plot, you're better off with a book.

edited 21st Jan '10 8:32:43 PM by WoolieWool

Out of Context Theater: Mike K "'Bloody Pussies' cracked me up"
Pretty_Angel Since: Oct, 2009
#471: Jan 22nd 2010 at 2:32:47 AM

Movies are too expensive these days for the executives to take serious risks with. If you really want a great plot, you're better off with a book.
Everytime when I read stuff like this I can't help but think of District 9 - a ridiculously low budget, awesome special effects and a really intense story. And it also does a much better job at dropping the anvil. Hollywood is doing something wrong.

Echospeed from USA Since: Aug, 2009
#472: Jan 22nd 2010 at 4:46:27 AM

The biggest offense, IMO, with Avatar is that it didn't portray humans fairly. They're either Friend to All Living Things, pure as fresh snow hippies or uncaring Corporate suits/soldiers/mercs who you're supposed to in no way like, with emphasis that most of them are the second group. It doesn't portray any "normal" humans looking at the situation from a rational view at all. It's either "Leave them alone completely forever" or "Kill 'em all!"

When you feel like the portrayal of humans is insulting to your very race, it kinda messes up the movie's message. Yeah, Humans Are Bastards, but hey...I happen to be one, so give us a fair chance.

Worse yet, the Na'Vi aren't fairly portrayed either. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE...is either a perfect Spiritual Leader, Noble Warrior, or skilled Hunter. They don't show any of 'em being a cowardly, good-for-nothing douchebag. None of them has gone Ax-Crazy and started scalping humans. And they don't even really emphasize how stupid, arrogant, and xenophobic it is for them to not be willing to negotiate at all with humans.

While Humans are jerkasses (Even the good ones), the Na'Vi are perfect. Even the worst of them are better than the "Good" humans. It's a wall-banger in a huge way.

I loved District 9, so I'm not completely biased against the particular Humans Are Bastards message. I thought District 9 was worlds better because it actually showed that though SOME humans are bastards, not all are and half of them that are, are doing it out of sheer ignorance (Wikis and his team honestly seem to believe they're helping early-on, while they're burning eggs and evicting people).

But it also showed that the Aliens are far, far from perfect and brought at least some of it on themselves. Some are rational, reasonable, and morally superior to humans. But some, quite a few even, are self-serving survivalists scounging, stealing, and generally making a mess of things.

It also had some actual character development, both with the aliens being unique individuals instead of them being cookie-cutter stereotypes that seem ripped right out of Pocohantas...and the humans were unique too, instead of all of them being either Biologist hippies, Corrupt Corporate Execs, or General Ripper.

I didn't think Avatar was horrible, but IMO, it was pretty bad. And the biggest issue is that since it sold so well, movie producers will make a habit of it's biggest offenses. "Screw the plot, we've got CGI!"

We can all learn something from the Legend of Zelda and it's triforce, Power is nothing without the courage and wisdom to make use of it...
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#473: Jan 22nd 2010 at 5:27:37 AM

Avatar's biggest offense is going for Black-and-White Morality as opposed to District 9's Grey-and-Gray Morality.

Oh, and making the Na'Vi Mary Sues... obviously Cameron wan'ts to be one of them.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
SapphireFlame from Land of Gijinka and RP Since: Oct, 2009
#474: Jan 22nd 2010 at 6:21:18 AM

The thing about Avatar is that "Respect people different from you" and "Take care of the environment" are aesops that have been drilled into our minds since elementary school. Do we really need another movie to tell us what we already know?

On another note, there's apparently a preliminary script floating around the internet where more humans and avatars join up with the Na'vi. I wish James Cameron had made that movie.

edited 22nd Jan '10 6:24:34 AM by SapphireFlame

Are you not entertained?
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#475: Jan 22nd 2010 at 6:47:07 AM

Sapphire: Not if it becomes a wish-fulfillment Mary Sue dream, no.

Sparky Sharps: . . . Hive Vagina? Now there's a term I haven't heard before. Hey, women might have a few latent psychic abilities, but there's a long stretch between borderline telepathy and a Hive Mind.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.

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