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A general thread for discussion of the Harry Potter books. Any new books set in the same world are also on-topic.

Games, films and other adaptations may be more appropriate for other threads if they're being discussed in isolation.

The HBO tv series has its own thread.

Mod Notes:

  • Media threads are primarily for fans of the works they cover. Not everyone will like everything, of course, and that's especially true in a franchise like Harry Potter. It's fine to say a particular story within the franchise doesn't work for you, or to talk about why it doesn't work for you. But please try not to dwell on the negativity for too long. Complaints shouldn't take up too much space on a thread that's intended for fans.
  • This is a thread to talk about Harry Potter and the content of the stories, not a place to talk about J. K. Rowling's more controversial views. If there's something newsworthy where Rowling's activities become relevant (e.g. it affects her relationship to new Potter works and adaptations), that's fair enough. Otherwise it's all been said already and we don't need to repeat it.

    Original text of OP 

there doesn't seem to be a general HP topic...

Edited by Mrph1 on May 27th 2025 at 9:17:24 AM

PhoenixAct Since: Feb, 2011
#23526: Sep 9th 2025 at 4:03:12 PM

[up][up][up][up]Except one of the first things we see Hobbits doing in the very first chapter is some mean-spirited rumour-mongering, the type of rumour mongering you only get in places where most people know each other.

The Hobbits are criticised for referring to it as "our own Shire" with the full quote being:

“But it is not your own Shire,’ said Gildor. ‘Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.”

Their tendency to try and ignore the outside world is exactly what enables Sharky and his boys to take control of the Shire in the first place. Good old-fashioned "Hobbit sense" wasn't enough to keep the wolves from the door, and the Hobbits couldn't mount any meaningful resistance until those who'd been and experienced the outside world returned.

Edited by PhoenixAct on Sep 9th 2025 at 4:04:23 AM

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#23527: Sep 9th 2025 at 4:08:26 PM

[up][up][up]That's what I meant, I was just describing it poorly. Scamander feels a bit... forced into the plot of the second film. It's a metaphor for the films really - the animal stuff feels out of place with the dark, complex wizard politics just as Newt does. Newt's just sort of along for the ride. There doesn't have to be a personal connection, but there has to be something. As I said, Gwindelwald is shown to mistreat animals, so even that could have been used (maybe the third film did, but the second should have really).

I also agree about Gwindelwald, I still have no idea what he wants. I first thought he liked Muggles, but apparently he hates them? God, Queenie (who can read minds!!!) must be so fucking dumb - he's not going to let you marry a muggle, dear. It also felt like it was unsure whether it wanted Gwindelwald to be complex, or pure evil. Either is fine, but it felt like the film wasn't sure. As I said, you have the scene where he pointlessly kills his loyal pet. Why? It's just a pointless Kick the Dog moment. He murders a child later on, you don't need that at the start to make people hate him! And if you do want to go full Hate Sink, then commit.

Edited by king15 on Sep 9th 2025 at 11:09:30 AM

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#23528: Sep 9th 2025 at 4:09:02 PM

TBH the ignoring the rest of the world and provincialism is a worldwide problem in LOTR, not a Hobbit specific one.

It's kind of the point of the door at Moria. that theres no password. That you can just say friend and enter. But the atmosphere of paranoia bred by Sauron has made that line of thinking impossible even for Gandalf. That there used to be a time where such things were common.

It's how Arnor fell, the kingdom divided itself into three which made it possible to fall because they fought each other. The Dwarves were content to remain in their mountains and ignore the world till a dragon came coming. The Ents ignore the world until their forest is literally being razed and they are stirred into action by Gandalf, Merry and Pippin.

In that aspect, the Hobbits weren't that different. They _used_ to be subjects of Arnor, with a Thain who served the king. When Arnor fell, they turned to themselves.

But anyway, this should go to the LOTR thread.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 9th 2025 at 7:10:25 AM

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#23529: Sep 9th 2025 at 4:37:30 PM

The later films struggle because Dumbledore is like "You're my spy now I guess" and Scamander is like "Sure... whatever". He has no real sign of caring what he's doing - they need to fit in a brother to rescue to motivate him, and people he likes in need of rescue or help. But you never really shake the feeling Newt would rather be anywhere else in these movies.

Honestly, they could have made Scamander work as a protagonist if they leaned into that more. Just have him be some random guy perplexed by being caught up in major events. "Why am I even here? I'm a zoologist!"

But really, the Fantastic Beasts films should never have been war films. Set during the war, sure, have the war be a major thing going on in the background. But it should have been like a movie about a chocolate shop set during WWII; the movie is shaped and moved by WWII, but you're not supposed to expect the protagonists to actually do something about the war.

And then, after that series (or solo movie) was done, they could have an actual war movie starring Dumbledore! More movies means more money. I don't see how any of this is complicated or controversial, marketing-wise.

Meanwhile, Grindelwald has a similar problem. It's often said a strongly motivated villain can carry a plot. But Grindelwald's motivations are like... whatever. He wants to be in charge? What does he personally believe in, stand for? It's not clear. He's a nebulously evil guy who wants to rule the world I guess.

I'm pretty sure it's because the film makers chickened out. They were afraid that having Wizard Hitler explain his racism explicitly and make it obvious wrong might offend the Nazis. Not to mention downplaying the Grindelwald/Dumbledore romance that was supposed to be a huge thing.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#23530: Sep 9th 2025 at 4:39:35 PM

"They were afraid that having Wizard Hitler explain his racism explicitly and make it obvious wrong might offend the Nazis."

A New Low.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#23531: Sep 9th 2025 at 4:46:14 PM

I'm pretty sure it's because the film makers chickened out. They were afraid that having Wizard Hitler explain his racism explicitly and make it obvious wrong might offend the Nazis. Not to mention downplaying the Grindelwald/Dumbledore romance that was supposed to be a huge thing.

I think part of the issue is that they have no plan. Like, JK, for all her faults, had an outline of what she wanted to do with HP. She sure didn't have every books written out, that part is obvious, and its clear she wrote stuff in hindsight she wished she didn't. But she knew she was doing a 7 book series, Harry would face Voldemort, who would return to life mid-way through the series. It allowed her to plot things out and plant payoffs - like how Sirius is mentioned in book 1.

The movies meanwhile were made ad hoc, with nothing to really expand on. Grindelwald is barely a character in the books, whose only real thing is his affair with Dumbledore, a vague WW 2 connection (at least in terms of chronology), and the Elder Wand.

The WW 2 thing is always gonna be a hot potato. Either you're writing that the Wizards caused WW 2, which is... a choice... or you end up with a Captain America scenario where it's like "WW 2 is happening, but the Nazis are not real threat actually", which is also... a choice...

WB was always gonna shy away of the gay stuff coz they want to release in China. So the Dumbledore/Grindelwald angle is dead on arrival.

And lastly, no one knows how many movies this was getting. Coz each movie is contingent on the next one doing well. So Grindelwald's "machination" basically have to be episodic, with some slight future hooks maybe?

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#23532: Sep 9th 2025 at 5:25:50 PM

"But really, the Fantastic Beasts films should never have been war films. Set during the war, sure, have the war be a major thing going on in the background. But it should have been like a movie about a chocolate shop set during WWII; the movie is shaped and moved by WWII, but you're not supposed to expect the protagonists to actually do something about the war. "

Dunno if that would help "a movie about this guy who want to get animals...but also there is WW 2 and the bigger conflict ever" I feel it will just confirm the allegation of JK no caring about sociaty issues.

As for grindelwald for what I get from his convos with albus is very "people need to be rescue...for the greater good" the whole WW 2 is him saying "muggles will kill themselves without a firm hand, someone should do something....someone like...maybe.....me"

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#23533: Sep 9th 2025 at 5:28:38 PM

[up] Believe me, she was better off when we thought she didnt care. Now she has a villain with the goal to stop World War II and the heroes want to stop them. Sidestepping WW 2 was the infinitely better choice.

Edited by AegisP on Sep 9th 2025 at 5:50:07 AM

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#23534: Sep 9th 2025 at 5:43:06 PM

It's a shame because "an explorer tries to pursue the strange and mystical beneath the backdrop of a magical war" is a really interesting idea.

Speaking of The Hobbit, I remember The Hobbit films did the same thing, where that story is doing something very different from the Lord of the Rings story despite being in the same franchise, and the films intially start out that way but quickly started shooting themselves in the foot trying to be "Lord of the Rings, Again!" note 

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#23535: Sep 9th 2025 at 5:45:11 PM

[up][up]I read one fic where some of Dumbledore's lines implied that Grindelwald was manipulating the Nazis so that he could use the Holocaust for some Human Sacrifice ritual. Wizarding society complained that Dumbledore was "waiting for the most dramatic moment" to confront Grindelwald because they weren't paying attention to the muggle world, but apparently he was busy ending the Holocaust.

There's some iffy stuff in putting your hero in the middle of any politics, even on the right side, but at least in this case you can't complain that the author ignored WWII or backed the wrong side.

Edited by Discar on Sep 9th 2025 at 5:45:26 AM

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#23536: Sep 9th 2025 at 5:49:43 PM

[up] I wanna say that's impressive, but while that's a way better plot and way to handle it, it is sad and pathetic A FUCKING FAN FIC did it better.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#23537: Sep 9th 2025 at 5:52:05 PM

No,using the holocaust like that does not mean 'a fan fic did it better' in fact that's the worst thing I've read all day

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#23538: Sep 9th 2025 at 6:01:03 PM

That means JK Rowlings was even worse. But I apologize.

EDIT: I know this is probably just burying myself deeper. But at least that fanfic has the villain have an EVIL GOAL and his boy toy that's only gay when he's evil have an ALTRUISTIC GOAL of lessening suffering and saving lives.

Edited by AegisP on Sep 9th 2025 at 6:04:52 AM

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#23539: Sep 9th 2025 at 7:05:53 PM

Nope, that fanfic's worse. It's cheapening the reason the Holocaust happened. "Oh it was just an evil wizard manipulating people for a mass human sacrifice and not the culmination of centuries of bigotry!"

Fuck. That.

Edited by M84 on Sep 9th 2025 at 10:06:03 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#23540: Sep 9th 2025 at 7:28:58 PM

Issue is I dont thing grindelwald wasnt try to stop WW it more he saw as proof muggle needed someone better to rule themselves. You get that feeling with albus in their talk.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#23541: Sep 9th 2025 at 7:29:18 PM

Welp. Major apology on my part. I'm sorry everyone.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#23542: Sep 9th 2025 at 7:38:25 PM

[up]To be fair, that is was a comon idea, like it cross my thought at well the idea he was using the holocaust to create a spell or using for some reason. it easy to belive

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#23543: Sep 9th 2025 at 7:40:49 PM

I seriously apologize everyone. That was awful.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#23544: Sep 10th 2025 at 8:39:54 AM

You dont need to apologise for you did not write the fic you only acknowledged its existance

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#23545: Sep 10th 2025 at 9:04:52 AM

My relisten today reached "Fight and Flight", which I kind of like because it's one the rare times when Hermione's plan really backfires because she really underestimates what dicks centaurs are. Which makes me Doylistic this is the reason why Grawp was introduced. To get them out that hole.

Plus Ginny taking none of Harry's shit. Neville getting involved purely out of trying to defend Ginny.

And Snape, while a dick, it's fun to see him turn the dickishness on Umbridge and have some clearly 'secret good guy' moments.

Tharrb Since: Oct, 2023
#23546: Sep 10th 2025 at 10:34:44 AM

You know, what with this “Grindlewald tried to stop world war 2” thing, it makes it seem like the writers fell for his “greater good” propaganda.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#23547: Sep 10th 2025 at 10:38:09 AM

they were spellbound

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#23548: Sep 10th 2025 at 10:40:36 AM

It also just makes wizard society look even worse, to be honest?

The problem with having a plot point like that is that most viewers know World War II happened historically, so you just end up with the question "So wait, why did nobody else try to stop this then?"

It's kinda similar to all those time travel stories that posit the idea that you shouldn't prevent a bad thing from happening because reasons. It just leaves a bad taste.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 10th 2025 at 7:42:51 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#23549: Sep 10th 2025 at 10:41:20 AM

TBH I always assumed the stop WWII thing was gonna be a bait and switch.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#23550: Sep 10th 2025 at 10:43:15 AM

Best evil plot with it, make it go farther or more crippling so that then he can sweep and take over.

Wake me up at your own risk.

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