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A general thread for discussion of the Harry Potter books. Any new books set in the same world are also on-topic.

Games, films and other adaptations may be more appropriate for other threads if they're being discussed in isolation.

The HBO tv series has its own thread.

Mod Notes:

  • Media threads are primarily for fans of the works they cover. Not everyone will like everything, of course, and that's especially true in a franchise like Harry Potter. It's fine to say a particular story within the franchise doesn't work for you, or to talk about why it doesn't work for you. But please try not to dwell on the negativity for too long. Complaints shouldn't take up too much space on a thread that's intended for fans.
  • This is a thread to talk about Harry Potter and the content of the stories, not a place to talk about J. K. Rowling's more controversial views. If there's something newsworthy where Rowling's activities become relevant (e.g. it affects her relationship to new Potter works and adaptations), that's fair enough. Otherwise it's all been said already and we don't need to repeat it.

    Original text of OP 

there doesn't seem to be a general HP topic...

Edited by Mrph1 on May 27th 2025 at 9:17:24 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#626: Oct 6th 2010 at 8:20:39 AM

I think he means that she only really started to get a presence (as far as we know, Harry Potter does occasionally rely on us to assume things happened in transitions and offscreen) and personality in the terms of Harry's life in around Book 4.

vifetoile Since: Jan, 2001
#627: Oct 6th 2010 at 7:23:35 PM

As far as shipping goes, hell, that black Muggle waitress from the sixth movie (who was nowhere at all in the book) was cute and could have made for a fascinating fanfiction, IMHO, were it not for the fact that by the time of movie six, all the ships had pretty much set sail.

On another topic, I was thinking today about house-elves. I was watching a video of Maya Angelou discussing the myth of the Happy Slave, the servant who forces themselves to seem happy because there is simply no other way to deal with their situation. And I was thinking about house-elves. And I don't think that JKR really handled that whole topic well.

First house elf we meet: Dobby. Dobby wants desperately to be free. But it turns out: Every house elf loves working. Really they do! It's what they were meant to do, practically. And in the end, yes, sincerely, it's just that simple. Dobby was an outlier. But don't forget, house-elves are people too! (And that simple idea is worth Ron and Hermione's first kiss.)

I mean, I do like how the house-elf liberation front plot gives Hermione something to be passionate about, and so passionately wrong about. She doesn't get it, she thinks she knows better than anyone, and she won't listen to any contrary advice. I like how it rounds out her character. But as a contribution to the overall story, house-elves are a weird and confusing element.

A_H_R Resistance is Futile from Crevice of your Mind Since: Feb, 2010
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#628: Oct 7th 2010 at 11:52:00 AM

@Vife: You're forgetting something, much like goblins, house elves are an entirely different species.

At no point is Hermione ever portrayed as wrong. Maybe misguided (Trying to give them freedom as opposed to an ideal living condition) but never wrong.

It's more interesting if you look at it from this angle- the fact that they ARE happy in slavery, and people just abuse the fuck out of them for that.

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Treblain Not An Avatar Since: Nov, 2012
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#629: Oct 7th 2010 at 3:00:44 PM

House-elves love working. They don't love being slaves, they're just used to it and they are happy as slaves because it lets them work. Dobby got abused so much that he broke his mental association between slavery and work, and realized he could do the same thing while free while avoiding the unpleasant parts. On the wizards' part, the arrangement is deplorable, since they're abusing the house-elves' desire to work by ripping them off.

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#630: Oct 7th 2010 at 8:38:01 PM

I think that Hermione was misguided in the sense that she looked at the situation from the outside and immediately said, "I know what's best for you, silly House Elves!" and tried to push it on them as though it were self-evidently good without considering their perspective.

I'll bet that her efforts will improve the lot of House-Elves, and she might even help them to free themselves, but she'll have to find a better way than she had going.

FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
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#631: Oct 7th 2010 at 9:05:28 PM

Frankly, if it took a bunch of tsundere-fetishist men to help us vagina-havin' folk get the vote, I wouldn't have cared how condescending they were until after we got it.

edited 7th Oct '10 9:05:56 PM by FurikoMaru

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#632: Oct 7th 2010 at 10:26:27 PM

The difference being that vagina-havin' folk actually want the vote. Hermione's trying to earn the House Elves something they don't want, and treating them in a condescending fashion while doing so. Her attitude and refusal to listen to even so much as the idea of the House Elves being happy with their situation reeks of "I know what's good for you and you don't, you silly uneducated peoples."

It's closer to, say, someone trying to help you get a big, purple, striped pole in your living room. And if you ask why you NEED a big, purple, striped pole in your living room, they treat you like a child and don't actually answer the question.

edited 7th Oct '10 10:27:28 PM by TobiasDrake

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#633: Oct 7th 2010 at 10:40:17 PM

I always thought the House Elf thing was a bit... complex. The implication I got from the House Elf's situation is that they've been enslaved for generations, and they're blissfully happy in enslavement because of generations upon generations of conditioning - they're happy because wizards bred them and conditioned them from birth to be that way (Kreacher's a good example, it's specifically shown that whatever beliefs their masters put upon them House Elves will accept... usually). Which... isn't great.

Also, note that Dobby states that the situation of the House Elves had gotten much, much worse when Voldemort's showed up, which implies a time where they, on average, weren't (as) abused, on average anyway. However, Dobby's the only one who cares, it seems. As the rule goes, there's always a few who don't follow the pack, but that doesn't mean they're wrong for doing so.

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#634: Oct 7th 2010 at 10:44:54 PM

Even so, if they're HAPPY, who are you* to take that away from them?

Things may not always have been like this, but they are like this now. The House Elves are happy doing what they do. Isn't their happiness the most important thing? What reason is there to try and change their situation if they themselves do not wish it changed?

The only possible answer to that question is "Because I know what's right for them better than they do," and that is extremely condescending. If the House Elves want freedom, let the House Elves lead the movement.

  • You here having the meaning of anyone who is not a House Elf.

edited 7th Oct '10 10:59:05 PM by TobiasDrake

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#635: Oct 7th 2010 at 11:23:36 PM

Even so, if they're HAPPY, who are you* to take that away from them?

Interesting question. To simplify in a slightly more extreme way: if a person's been brainwashed into contentment, at the expense of their free will, is it better to free them or leave them enslaved and keep them intent.

And no, the answer(s) aren't that simple. There certainly isn't only one.

It's the old "is blissful ignorance better than informed anxiety." That's, of course, assuming that the end result would remove their contentment in the first place, of course - they mainly seem afraid of the transition.

edited 7th Oct '10 11:23:57 PM by KnownUnknown

FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
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#636: Oct 7th 2010 at 11:39:09 PM

Not for nothing, but the books are told from a human perspective; since when have any slaves ever been entirely frank about their thoughts on yaoi in front of their masters? It's just not smart to show off brain-learnin' when your position depends on you being dumb and loyal.

edited 7th Oct '10 11:39:46 PM by FurikoMaru

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#637: Oct 8th 2010 at 6:28:30 AM

Not being up front is one thing, but the House Elves seem downright offended by the movement.

It is a difficult and complicated question, which goes back to why I say: let the House Elves decide. If they WANT a civil rights movement, let them start a civil rights movement, because no one but the House Elves knows what they want.

Trying to start one on their behalf, like Hermione did, will at best be clumsy, ill-informed, and insensitive to cultural and social values of a completely different group of people, and at best, downright offensive and will make them want to fight the movement because of displeasure at how it treats them.

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#638: Oct 8th 2010 at 5:05:15 PM

Leave it to people like Dobby, then? That's what has to happen for it to be effective, for sure. Sadly, with the way House Elves are slaves even moreso to tradition than to their masters, it'd probably take a lot more years and a lot more Dobbys for there to be an impact.

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#639: Oct 8th 2010 at 5:14:44 PM

Probably. Dobby would be a better leader for the movement, since he actually knows what he's fighting for. His death probably set the movement all the way back to "There's a movement? WTF are you smoking?"

Dobby was a revolutionary. He just wasn't listened to in his time. Maybe some day.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#640: Oct 8th 2010 at 5:18:59 PM

Then the House Elves found Dobbianity, throw off their bonds, go out into the world to pave their own, and eventually over hundreds of years become socially synonymous with empires that would go on to, themselves dominate and subjugate the entire world. Full circle! Whee!

Remember, Dobby died for your sins.

FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
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#641: Oct 8th 2010 at 5:21:03 PM

Betcha Nietzsche's laughin' in his grave.

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Nornagest Since: Jan, 2001
#642: Oct 8th 2010 at 5:23:05 PM

it makes it look like you just tossed in asshole relatives to make him seem more tragic without thinking about what the consequences would be

I don't quite think that Rowling placed Harry with asshole relatives to make him seem more tragic, but evil parents or stepparents are a cliche of the British boarding-school genre.

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A_H_R Resistance is Futile from Crevice of your Mind Since: Feb, 2010
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#643: Oct 8th 2010 at 5:25:03 PM

Considering how her first idea ever was 'boy who does not know he's a wizard finds out he is one', she probably reversed engineered them.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#644: Oct 8th 2010 at 5:31:04 PM

^^ In fact, evil relatives have been a staple of the fantasy genre for hundreds of years.

AlirozTheConfused Bibliophile. from Daz Huat! Since: May, 2010
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#645: Oct 8th 2010 at 7:28:42 PM

I believe that "Jerk, cruel, evil relatives" trope (do we have it if not I'll ykttw it) starts with greek mythology. Zeus was such a meanieface.

edited 8th Oct '10 7:29:01 PM by AlirozTheConfused

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#646: Oct 8th 2010 at 9:30:14 PM

So was Cronus. Can't get much worse than eating your own kids.

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Taelor Don't Forget To Smile from The Paths of Spite Since: Jul, 2009
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#647: Oct 8th 2010 at 10:06:13 PM

^Zeus tried to do that as well. It didn't work out quite the way he'd planned, though.

edited 8th Oct '10 10:08:02 PM by Taelor

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frog753 Non-Action Guy from CT and/or MA Since: Jul, 2009
#648: Oct 11th 2010 at 6:48:04 AM

Hope I'm not interrupting a line of discussion here.

Now, unless I'm forgetting something from the course of the series...

I think it would be interesting if someone explored the implications of a muggle-born wizard/witch whose parents happened to not be just muggles, but also some sort of fundamentalist Christians, or any religion really. Seems like there could be some interesting conflicts there...

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Accela Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
#649: Oct 11th 2010 at 8:09:41 AM

^ Tada!

edited 11th Oct '10 8:09:53 AM by Accela

frog753 Non-Action Guy from CT and/or MA Since: Jul, 2009

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