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ShinyCottonCandy Pii~Pipple! from New Alberia Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Pii~Pipple!
Mar 24th 2020 at 6:50:33 PM

Perhaps my own lack of familiarity with FFXV lets me enjoy Yozora’s presence more than those who follow FF.

I need to think of a better signature.
Mar 24th 2020 at 8:28:53 PM

I enjoyed Yozora as the obvious Noctis parody in Toy Box, the teaser in the Secret Ending and his boss battle in Secret Episode.

I'm excited to see more in future KH games.

TheAirman from Congratulations! Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Mar 24th 2020 at 9:44:59 PM

Like, I groaned about it a bit at first when I finished the game and realized that yeah, this is happening now, but now I'm just rolling with and annoyed at my friend who still gets super salty about Yozora and takes it waaaaaay to seriously whenever the subject comes up.

Best case scenario, it takes the franchise into a good direction. Worst case scenario, we get an idea of what Nomura actually planned for Versus, find out if it was any good or not, and bury that hatchet once and for all. Either way, I get to smack the crap out of Disney characters with a giant silver key while listening to whatever fire Shimomura graces us with next. No real downside.

Just gimme that and more scenes like Yeetus Vanitas, and I'm happy.

Edited by TheAirman on Mar 24th 2020 at 11:46:51 AM

PSN ID: FateSeraph Congratulations!
LewisLiddel Lucem Ferto Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Lucem Ferto
Mar 24th 2020 at 11:35:44 PM

In regards to people being salty about Yozora, I can only echo Queen Buns.

On a more serious note, people just generally seem averse to new things. As evidenced by all the complaints about the new stuff the χ-series introduced. There are people who can roll with the punches and then there are those who dig in their heels and want everything to remain the same.

Which is ironic considering that before χ people were complaining about the narrative never taking a new direction. I distinctly remember some people cynically declaring that the Foretellers and the Master of Masters would be pawns of Xehanort because they were so convinced that Xehanort was a Villain Sue or Creator's Pet or something to that effect. Needless to say, they've been proven wrong and now they complain that the Master of Masters undermines Xehanort as a mastermind.

There is simply no pleasing some people.

Omnia Fragmenta iaciunt, ubi cadebant
lycropath Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Mar 24th 2020 at 11:54:08 PM

I don't think its remotely unreasonable for people to be upset about a lot of the backstory and plot that is vomited out of X, its gated behind a gatcha game with bad gameplay, it follows characters that are neither interesting nor sympathetic and doesn't even tell this story coherently or at a reasonable pace.

Edited by lycropath on Mar 24th 2020 at 11:58:23 AM

LewisLiddel Lucem Ferto Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Lucem Ferto
Mar 25th 2020 at 12:09:20 AM

The entire story can be enjoyed on YouTube thanks to khinsider. The story is not any more "incomprehensible" - however you may determine that - than any other KH game. There are more than enough avenues to catch up.

The characters are very interesting. The Master of Masters is one of the most entertaining characters to come out of this franchise in years and I personally find Ava, Ephemer and Strelitzia to be very likeable.

It provides intriguing mysteries like Darkness and Strelitzia's murder and brings Maleficent back in an interesting way (something people have been clamoring for if I remember correctly). The pacing is slow, but that is just the nature of these mobile games.

Edited by LewisLiddel on Mar 25th 2020 at 8:10:06 PM

Omnia Fragmenta iaciunt, ubi cadebant
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Mar 25th 2020 at 12:25:24 AM

Kingdom Hearts being “incomprehensible” is a overplayed joke and a bad one at that.

Edited by fredhot16 on Mar 25th 2020 at 12:25:56 PM

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense with it's own rules.
lycropath Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Mar 25th 2020 at 1:27:10 AM

[up][up]The story having to be viewed on youtube in a cut that has been dissected to cut out hours of meandering by fans instead of actually playing it is not a glowing recommendation.

Its okay if you like it but people aren't unhappy with it for no reason and its bad form to consider people don't like it to be unpleasable, there are very legitimate criticisms to be had.

deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Mar 25th 2020 at 1:27:33 AM

Oh no, I'm the weak to be weeded out. sad

[up][up] And yeah, it's not incomprehensible. Poorly written at times, but it's not hard to understand.

Edited by deludedmusings on Mar 25th 2020 at 6:56:48 PM

Holding a grudge is allowing someone to live inside your head rent free.
Mar 25th 2020 at 1:36:21 AM

As long as Disney characters get to pop up and do stuff Ill be happy. I have no doubt it will be majorly Yozora, but having alternate versions of old characters Sora and Yozora have to work with without being chained by the movies.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Mar 25th 2020 at 1:39:24 AM

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Formerly G.G.
Mar 25th 2020 at 1:48:10 AM

As many others had said in the past, Kingdom Hearts' story is bloated rather than really hard to follow. It adds in too much unnecessary fluff that doesn't really add any depth to the story.

"The original slime is always the best one."
Mar 25th 2020 at 2:47:01 AM

The only issue I current have is the ending sequence,Mickey explain that Xehanort is a time portal but WTF ? What Scalla is ? Dream World ? Data ? Why everyone goes here if a person only can time travel in the form of a heart ? By the logic everyone broke a nature taboo at the ending,all this will be like why past Xehanorts return on DDD, only explained seven years later on KH 3 as being replicas.

The shit is when explanation make things worse or even is plain wrong.

The thing is,when we understand stuff like the mentioned replica thing,is a point we don't care anymore because we are distracted by the other new ones like The Black Box stuff.

Edited by LoutishHelminthic on Mar 25th 2020 at 6:56:52 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Mar 25th 2020 at 3:36:09 AM

I'm more wary of the trend of every new villain in KH being revealed to be the mastermind behind the previous villains.

I liked the X-series stuff for the most part, just not the sudden reveal that the M Aster of Masters was behind almost everything. What next? Will the Mo M also be revealed to be under the thumb of some greater threat in a few games' time as well?

Xehanort doesn't have to be a villain sue, but letting him stand by himself for at least his own saga would be nice.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 25th 2020 at 10:40:51 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
BadWolf21 The Fastest Man Alive
The Fastest Man Alive
Mar 25th 2020 at 7:00:13 AM

Self-quarantined and currently jobless, I am replaying Kingdom Hearts Final Mix on PS4. This one, Re:Chain of Memories (both on PS3), and 3D are the only ones I've played before, but I got Kingdom Hearts III for Christmas (and had owned The Story So Far prior to that), so I'm going to slowly work my way through the series, interspersing it with other games so I don't burn out on it.

I'm at the end of Atlantica right now, and so far the game is easier than I remember it being. Like, I'm better at it, despite not having played it in...god like, five years. Maybe it's just coming off a couple Resident Evil games making me more likely to explore every nook and cranny, so I'm finding stuff as I go instead of having to backtrack all the time.

Mar 25th 2020 at 7:19:26 AM

The question isn't if you can catch up by watching a bunch of Youtube compilations. The question is, why the hell should you? That is clearly not the way you're intended to consume this story, and no story should ever just expect its audience to be willing to do homework to fully understand things. For me to bother actually looking up a bunch of additional lore online, there would have to be something in the mainline games that actually peaked my interest to begin with. And when the story in the mainline games themselves is so increasingly poor, self-contradictory and pretentious, there's just no such motivation to do additional research in order to fully understand the point of random new characters from mobile games who turn up as important new players.

Which is ironic considering that before χ people were complaining about the narrative never taking a new direction. I distinctly remember some people cynically declaring that the Foretellers and the Master of Masters would be pawns of Xehanort because they were so convinced that Xehanort was a Villain Sue or Creator's Pet or something to that effect. Needless to say, they've been proven wrong and now they complain that the Master of Masters undermines Xehanort as a mastermind.

The problem isn't how the revelation affects Xehanort or his status as the ultimate villain. The problem is that it's an act of retconning all of the plot up until now into a chapter in some new, different story. It cheapens Sora's entire journey, not just Xehanort's plot, in a lame effort to get the audience invested in the hot new villain without actually earning it.

And doing this is nothing new. Practically every event, every villain's scheme and every heroic victory in the series has previously been retconned into being part of this big interconnected web leading up to KHIII. The fact that this big interconnected web has now itself been retconned into an even larger interconnected web is just more of the same on a larger scale.

And like [up][up] said, it's a storytelling trend that does make it difficult for me to care about the Master of Masters. (Well, that, and the fact that he's like the 73rd character in the series wearing that godforsaken black cloak.) Because I fully expect that if the series goes on for long enough, whatever the Master of Masters is planning will also be recontextualised as a lead-up or cog in some new, grander story that Nomura will have thought up by that time. This series has long been incapable of just ending one story arc and starting another. Everything has to be retconned into being part of one grand narrative, even though it's blatantly not been written that way. There's no reason for me to believe that no, really, this time we're really, tots for realzies, leading up to the ultimate mastermind's grand scheme that will shatter worlds and be this grand epic finale.

VeryMelon SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
Mar 25th 2020 at 7:28:44 AM

I'd like to see where Yozora goes from here, but that would mean caring about games after KH 3.

Mar 25th 2020 at 8:44:23 AM

I believe Yozora steals Sora's body on the bad ending like happened with Terranort and Luxu,and Yozora himself have his body snatched as hinted by the nameless star,maybe he himself kills her after,next saga we will know a new enemy type that steals bodies as hinted by Master on Union Cross.

This is Just a quick theory I comes.

Edited by LoutishHelminthic on Mar 25th 2020 at 12:46:18 PM

Mar 25th 2020 at 11:07:54 AM

I dont see how it cheapens soras journey anymore than xemnas revealing he was collecting the hearts sora was releasing for 3 games did. sora has always been some dumb islander who is too dumb and headstrong to actually factor into the bad guys plans.

Mar 25th 2020 at 11:46:58 AM

I'd dispute he's "always" been like that. The characterization of Sora as a straight-up idiot very much came to a head around the time of Dream Drop Distance. Like, to be frank, a lot of the series' problems.

As for why it cheapens the journey? Well, if you've been following a story for a long time and let yourself get invested in the protagonist's adventures to save the world from destruction, having all those adventures reframed as a mere set-up to some totally different thing retroactively cheapens the experience. The game is effectively telling the viewer that the feelings the viewer attached to the story were fake, and that they should now instead attach those feelings to this new cool thing.

Do you remember that sense of triumph when you defeated Ansem in the first game as a young kid and saved Kingdom Hearts and the whole multiverse? Well, it turns out that Ansem was just a pawn in a bigger villain's plan, and that wasn't even the real Kingdom Hearts. Did you feel a similar sense of triumph and closure when, following one of the most epic confrontations in any video game, you foiled Xemnas's plan to conquer Kingdom Hearts in Kingdom Hearts II? Well, it turns out Xemnas is also just playing a part in a different villain's convoluted scheme, and that wasn't even the real Kingdom Hearts. Did you feel touched by how Terra, Ven and Aqua's sacrificed themselves to stop Xehanort's scheme to conquer Kingdom Hearts in Birth by Sleep? Well, it turns out they actually just mildly inconvenienced his long-term plans, and also that wasn't the real Kingdom Hearts either.

This kind of storytelling doesn't make me excited for what's next. It just makes me regret ever having been invested in any of this, because the series keeps telling me post-fact that whatever I felt about the previous events in the journey, was wrong.

When Kingdom Hearts III goes ahead and tells me that literally every event in the series thus far has transpired in accordance with a plot by a clairvoyant new villain, it doesn't make me excited to see what that new villain is cooking up. It just makes me feel cheated for having followed the series this long, expecting some kind of culmination at some point rather than just constant hooks to some new plot that inevitably won't truly go anywhere.

Edited by DrDougsh on Mar 25th 2020 at 11:50:16 AM

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
Mar 25th 2020 at 5:58:50 PM

Do you remember that sense of triumph when you defeated Ansem in the first game as a young kid and saved Kingdom Hearts and the whole multiverse? Well, it turns out that Ansem was just a pawn in a bigger villain's plan, and that wasn't even the real Kingdom Hearts.
So what? He was still destroying the worlds, he still needed to be stopped, he was still the one who wrecked Radiant Garden and he was still the one you beat and in doing so saved everyone.
Did you feel a similar sense of triumph and closure when, following one of the most epic confrontations in any video game, you foiled Xemnas's plan to conquer Kingdom Hearts in Kingdom Hearts II? Well, it turns out Xemnas is also just playing a part in a different villain's convoluted scheme, and that wasn't even the real Kingdom Hearts.
So what? His plan still needed to be stopped, the threat he presented was still real, that Kingdom Hearts still would've completed his plans (and was referred to as artificial even back then), he was still behind the game's conflict and beating him still finished the overarching story arc of SKR going back home.

Did you feel touched by how Terra, Ven and Aqua's sacrificed themselves to stop Xehanort's scheme to conquer Kingdom Hearts in Birth by Sleep? Well, it turns out they actually just mildly inconvenienced his long-term plans, and also that wasn't the real Kingdom Hearts either.
Their sacrifice they made still delayed him, still resulted in the amnesiac Terra-Xehanort and still thwarted his original plans for a decade. Also, wasn't that the real Kingdom Hearts? I don't recall, but I don't think it was ever referred to as fake or incomplete like Ansem and Xemnas' were.

Honestly dude, I'm not one to try and silence criticism, God knows this series is flawed. But I have to ask, why do you even bother? Is there anything you actually like about Kingdom Hearts? All you ever do is shit on it from one angle or another, sometimes pointing out flaws but most often just falling on the "dislike" side of any YMMV issue. What do you even get out of it?

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Mar 25th 2020 at 6:28:01 PM

"Ansem"

To be fair, Ansem's goal was invalidated in the first game when he finally got to Kingdom Hearts and got wrecked, Indiana Jones style. Like, the Heartless he was releasing was bad but him getting to Kingdom Hearts was the equivalent of a person wanting to bang a wild lion.

"Birth By Sleep"

Yeah, that was the real Kingdom Hearts. I mean, I don't remember anything resembling an assertion in the game that it wasn't anything but.

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense with it's own rules.
lycropath Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Mar 25th 2020 at 7:10:14 PM

I'd have to agree that Ansem as a character is definitely hurt probably more then any other by retcons. A very large portion much of his dialogue, motivations and actions straight up don't make any sense after 3D. Like his iconic Death by Irony is a Plot Hole extraordinaire now.

Xemnas himself suffers from this a little too, where we were given a man driven by Loss of Identity went on to delve into unethical experiments, steal his masters name in order to try and fill that emptiness that his lack of memories has left him. Now he's kind of just a huge dick.

Edited by lycropath on Mar 25th 2020 at 7:16:05 AM

TheAirman from Congratulations! Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Mar 25th 2020 at 8:02:36 PM

According to Xehanort Report VII, the Kingdom Hearts summoned by the X-Blade is the True Kingdom Hearts

https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Xehanort%27s_Report#Xehanort.27s_Report_VII

"I have uncovered the Keyblade's ultimate mystery. You see, besides the three families of Keyblades, there is another "Key Blade." While it may sound the same when spoken, it is notated uniquely: "χ-blade." And make no mistake, while it resembles a normal Keyblade, it is something altogether different. Keyblades are said to be man-made counterparts to Kingdom Hearts. The χ-blade, however, coexists with Kingdom Hearts. It is only forged when two hearts of equal power intersect—one heart of pure darkness, one heart of pure light. At the time of its forging, Kingdom Hearts appears. It must be noted, though, that this Kingdom Hearts is special. Unlike the Kingdoms brought about forcibly and artificially through the collection of hearts, THIS Kingdom Hearts is a perfect and complete union of ALL the worlds' hearts. Surely it was over this that the ancient Keyblade War was fought. If so, the walls that divide the worlds today are of little consequence. With the χ-blade, all their hearts could be instantly reunited—and the Keyblade War, refought."

Although Dream Drop Distance later says that the X-Blade in BBS was incomplete due to only having 1 pure light & 1 pure darkness when it should be 7 lights & 13 darknesses.

So it may not have been the true Kingdom Hearts after all.

Mar 25th 2020 at 8:02:37 PM

Is there anything you actually like about Kingdom Hearts?

I like, even love, the gameplay in most of the games (and given that this is a video game series, that has to count for about as much as the story). I'd probably still count Kingdom Hearts II as one of my favourite games overall. I replayed it last year (trying the Final Mix version out for the first time)and thought it held up extremely well. Hell, even though I dislike the story in KHIII, I still thought it was a fun gameplay experience, if somewhat button-mashy.

I like the Disney worlds and characters. I was introduced to the series as a Disney fan, and that is still the main reason I pay attention to these games. I really enjoy seeing how the series constructs video game levels out of all these movies I like, and I enjoy teaming up with Disney characters and exploring familiar sights in new ways. The music in pretty much all of the games is to die for, and it seldom if ever fails to set just the right atmosphere.

And I even like the story, to a degree. I unironically enjoy the plot of about the first three or four games in the series, warts and all. Some of the series' flaws were already apparent in those games, particularly Kingdom Hearts II, but I don't think they totally manage to bring them down. I still have some affection for Sora in those earlier games and wish to see him succeed at reuniting with his friends and defeat his enemies. The plot in those games is hardly perfect, but it manages to work overall for a time.

It's at around the time of coded and Dream Drop Distance where I think the series pretty much jumped the shark (in terms of plot, gameplay and its use of Disney elements), and I don't think it's ever totally recovered from it. It's the point where I think the series' story stopped being fun if silly, and just became actively terrible. The plot past that game isn't even bad in a funny way, it's just actively godawful and infuriating.

And even though that means that I essentially like more than half of the entries in the series, the ways in which I dislike the post coded-games kind of make it hard to have really positive feelings even about the earlier entries. The things that I dislike in the later entries kind of impose themselves really aggressively onto the early entries by attempting to recontextualise everything in those games as chapters in this frustratingly awful grand narrative that the series' director keeps weaving and expanding with every single entry.

With that kind of mindset, yeah, I guess I don't really have much positive to contribute to threads like this, or much reason to even keep up with the series any longer. But I still picked up KHIII, both because of the promising trailers showing off stuff like the dazzling Toy Story world, and in hopes of getting a bit of closure for a story that I'd at least started out liking. And when I played through that game, I can't help but feel frustrated by all these elements that I hate and the ways in which I feel like the potential that this series has is being wasted. And when you're frustrated, you generally want some outlet to express your frustration.

Edited by DrDougsh on Mar 25th 2020 at 8:20:47 AM


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