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Airships and their weapons.

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TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#126: Aug 31st 2010 at 9:29:34 PM

You would think so. Except all the rail guns that were used took quite a long time to reload and could only move on tracks which limits your mobility. Even an airship with light guns would have more maneuverability vs a rail gun.

Who says you can't mount larger artillery on the airships? We already covered the dorsal and spinal turrets and that they would need to be different design then a traditional warships turret.

Your also forgetting the airships that can mount a dorsal gun turret can deliver easy plunging fire on a target.

edited 31st Aug '10 10:39:19 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#127: Sep 1st 2010 at 4:50:07 AM

Actually, I think a lot of small guns would be more useful for ship to ship engagements. Their opponents are small, and (relatively) fast moving targets, a whole bunch of small projectiles firing out and going off in a cloud stands a much better chance of damaging a ship. I think. If you've don't have guided weapons and you're trying to hit a small target with a bomb, would you rather have a big single bomb or a Cluster Bomb on a timer?

Fight smart, not fair.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#128: Sep 1st 2010 at 5:05:28 AM

Not all the ships will be fast just the smaller ones. They still have mass to move around.

Who watches the watchmen?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#129: Sep 1st 2010 at 5:50:23 AM

Still, it's going to be a pain to hit them. If they're relatively lightly armored, going for a close fragmentation may have a higher reliability factor than a heavy shell.

Fight smart, not fair.
Acatalepsy The Map To Madness Since: Mar, 2010
The Map To Madness
#130: Sep 1st 2010 at 6:46:08 AM

I think you need to figure out how much the airship can carry, and for what effective cost. That's going to determine a lot of stuff.

How hard something is to hit is is a function of not only how fast the target moves, but how good firing systems the shooter has. Early mechanical computers are going to be important in making those long range kills.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#131: Sep 1st 2010 at 7:01:44 AM

^ Good point about early targeting computers. They existed in World War Two which is why US ships were vastly superior to Axis vessels in the realm of air defense. (Look up the Kerrison Predictor, the Director, and the Gundata Fire Control Computer, all products made and fielded prior to 1945. Some of these like the Kerrison Predictor existed in the late 1930s.)

Acatalepsy The Map To Madness Since: Mar, 2010
The Map To Madness
#132: Sep 1st 2010 at 7:50:43 AM

One great resource: The Command of the Air, an early thinker on the role of air power and the need for independent air forces.

Also, I have to wonder if you could in fact have fighter of a sort; a dive bomber. If the effective ceiling on airship height is 10,000 feet, a small 'ship' with an enclosed cockpit could rise to 12,000 feet and then assault the enemy ship from above. This leads to friendly enclosed gun platforms that rise to 12,000 feet to engage them, followed by attack craft that fight those gun platforms, and so on. You've got real potential for a Lensman Arms Race. This also, by the way, points to an effective submarine analog; a submarine is essentially an regular ship that's been designed for sustained operations in the upper atmosphere. It's air tight, stealthy in that it can go high enough to be rather hard to spot (Climb! Climb! Climb! instead of Dive! Dive! Dive!), but with constraints on its design that make it inferior in many respects to conventional vehicles (like in armor and armament).

Also, something else: Space. I don't see any reason the handwavium you postulate can't be used to create full out space ships, moon bases, the works. Lacking things like radar and nuclear power, things are a bit more complicated, but unless you have some sort of ceiling on your airships space exploration and exploitation will result. And by exploitation, think something along the lines of: France gets sick of dealing with those annoying Germans, and so builds sealed light cruiser (say, 3000 tons). It moves up to about 300 km above Berlin then the crew cuts the power and abandons ship, dropping the thing on Berlin. Then...boom. that's two kilotons worth of dead right there. More if there are actual explosives on board. It's not a good day to be a jelly donut, if you catch my non-existent reference.

On the other hand, if you wanted to do WWI In Space then this could work out really well. Hell, that could be the real Lensman Arms Race; WWI gets short circuited by everyone carving territory out of the moon and mars in true pre-WWI imperialist fashion.

Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#133: Sep 1st 2010 at 9:26:54 AM

To be fair, I got the magical 10,000 figure from a FAA/CAA (?) directive. I've gone up to 10,000 feet (give-or-take) and I've felt fine, but perhaps that's due to my youth and the fact that we were about to infringe on some airways (as the tower so helpfully told us) and thus we descended rapidly (perhaps preventing too much being affected).

Locking you up on radar since '09
Acatalepsy The Map To Madness Since: Mar, 2010
The Map To Madness
#134: Sep 1st 2010 at 9:48:38 AM

Regardless of what the actual maximum height is, the point - using smaller, enclosed craft to go even higher - stands; though such a thing would be unnecessary if the ships themselves were completely enclosed (which, eventually, they would be). The point about space is also something that needs to be addressed; if there is nothing stopping the airships from going to the moon, people will use airships to go to the moon (The theory necessary had been around since 1903; throw in some magic anti-gravity metal and you have yourself a space race). If there is nothing stopping the fleet from dropping several thousand tons worth of death on the enemy capital, then the fleet will drop several thousand tons of death on the enemy capital (and for added fun, throw in a few hundred tons of poison gas).

Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#135: Sep 1st 2010 at 10:00:13 AM

^Even enclosed aircraft suffer the same oxygen problems as "open air" ones - what you're looking for is pressurised aircraft. That, and considering the level of technology we're dealing with here, it may not be a given that fixed wing aircraft will be able to make it higher than an airship.

Locking you up on radar since '09
Acatalepsy The Map To Madness Since: Mar, 2010
The Map To Madness
#136: Sep 1st 2010 at 10:50:44 AM

I wasn't postulating fixed wing aircraft; just subtypes of magic-powered airship. You're right about the enclosed/pressurized thing though - I should have explicitly said that our hypothetical 'fighters' were not just enclosed but pressurized as well.

Acatalepsy The Map To Madness Since: Mar, 2010
The Map To Madness
#137: Sep 1st 2010 at 10:50:46 AM

Double Postage!

edited 1st Sep '10 10:51:11 AM by Acatalepsy

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#138: Sep 1st 2010 at 11:03:46 AM

The reason they won't be spaceships is one they won't have the technology to make space travel, two the technology is going to rely on something on Earth for the Lift engines to work which will also end up limiting their max ceiling, fuel and power source is an issue the higher you go the more power you need to lift yourself there.

I still haven't quite figured out what would be the factor that limits their flight to earth. Story wise this means someone will have to conduct max altitude experiments at some point.

The reason will be something like at certain altitude ABSL The engines do what most air breathing engines do. Sputter out and lose power but like I said I am still working out that particular mechanic. I could be really lazy and just hand wave it out.

The alloy engines will have an alloy weight to lift weight ratio for a rough formula to figure out ship weight and how much it can carry aloft. This will depend on the lift engines (Ie which alloys are they made of)and the efficiency of the various power generators to produce lift as well as propel the ship.

I have also gone back to toying with ships being pushed along by large propellers. I am not sure if I like the idea of the push vents using smaller engines on anything except as maneuvering engines.

Major Tom your also forgetting the Germans had some excellent fire control systems of their own think the Bismark. They just never had much of a large wet navy presence because it meant challenging England directly.

This will be handy for figuring basic warships actual weights.

edited 1st Sep '10 11:10:41 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Acatalepsy The Map To Madness Since: Mar, 2010
The Map To Madness
#139: Sep 1st 2010 at 11:58:22 AM

The reason they won't be spaceships is one they won't have the technology to make space travel, two the technology is going to rely on something on Earth for the Lift engines to work which will also end up limiting their max ceiling, fuel and power source is an issue the higher you go the more power you need to lift yourself there.

If you give people a metal whose effect is to produce an anti-gravity effect, they can use that for space travel. It would be difficult, to be sure, with 1916 technology - but far from impossible.

If you don't want to give your guys spaceships, don't give them spaceships. That means that you really do need to work out a physical basis for your magic metal. That means figuring out what forces this magic metal generates and interacts with, and whether it otherwise obeys the laws of physics as we know them. I'd suggest that the answer be yes to the later; its pretty easy to get the effect you want.

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#140: Sep 1st 2010 at 12:12:01 PM

Bismarck was a nice design, and well-suited for commerce raiding.

However, as well-designed her armor scheme was, the constant attacks robbed her of the ability to fight cohesively, which led to the crew scuttling her. Had Bismarck had better CIC capabiities, she might have given out more punishment before finally succumbing to overwhelming numbers.

Also, getting her rudder shot out, with no alternate method of steering. Death knoll...

(I had thought I made a post concerning fire-control previously - not just a two-dimmension problem any longer, and the effect of shell splashes in water to help 'bracket' the target is unavailable.)

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#141: Sep 1st 2010 at 12:15:16 PM

Also, concerning engines and the need for air:

Super-charging and turbo-charging. Force air into the boilers (if you're using old-fashioned coal or oil-burning boilers) so as to provide them with adequate air supply, to keep the steam turines running.

Overpressurizing the hull works great until you get hull breaches. Then you can kiss a lot of eardrums goodbye, in that affected compartment. Might have some experiments in that field, and the nasty results of when someone opened an exterior hatch on accident - or, when they couldn't open an exterior hatch, due to pressure difference...?

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#142: Sep 1st 2010 at 12:24:17 PM

-Face Desk- Well there is the answer right there.

They are using air breathing engines...the generators are running on common combustibles. They will need air and of course need to exhaust.

That pretty much keeps you inside the realm of earthly flight and limits how high you can go.

Yeah targeting will be an interesting thing to work out. They actually did make tracer rounds for some forms of artillery mostly the direct fire variety but it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have shells that are giant tracers or have a smoke pellet in the base of the shell for targeting. Tracers work both ways though :).

Ships could fire some tracers until they have their targeting down and then fire some non tracer ammo with a tracer shot in the mix to make sure they are staying close to target.

At least two observation and fire control towers for the ships batteries if they have ventral and dorsal turret mounts.

Who watches the watchmen?
Acatalepsy The Map To Madness Since: Mar, 2010
The Map To Madness
#143: Sep 1st 2010 at 12:40:48 PM

They are using air breathing engines...the generators are running on common combustibles. They will need air and of course need to exhaust.

That pretty much keeps you inside the realm of earthly flight and limits how high you can go.

Not really. The theory for using rockets for interplanetary flight existed in 1903. I mean, these rockets aren't going to be air battleships but they don't really need to be either. There are other ways of generating thrust; steam jets, etc. Not particularly good methods, mind you, but if you can tell gravity to go bug off and don't need to worry about air friction they don't have to be that good either.

And then somebody uses their antigravity machines to make a space elevator...

edited 1st Sep '10 12:41:00 PM by Acatalepsy

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#144: Sep 1st 2010 at 1:01:22 PM

Getting a stable orbital velocity would help. Sure, you can get up there, but once you turn the anti-grav off, you fall back down. You need the tangential velocity to stay up there.

Heh, and then your ship interior would be in free-fall. Cue lots of stuff adrift in a compartment, along with the ear-splitting wail of stuff returning to the deck once fre-fall ends. Plus, free-fall has interesting effects of air-flow, fluid bahavior and all sorts of other things. Electric devices would overheat, as there is no 'up' for heat to rise to, unless you provide mechanical airflow. Oh, and using the head would be interesting if it's a conventional toilet.

Anyway...

I can see competitions (technology demonstrators and trade fairs) on which country can achieve the highest altitude record, say, 10k feet early on, then 12k, then 15k, along with nasty accidents all along the way.... Maybe some wag tries to force-feed pure oxygen into the hull to keep the crew in peak shape at high altitudes, along with predictable results if a fire breaks out. Allong with distance records, time spent aloft, and the like. The first global circumnavigation trip will be a big deal, and score lots of street cred for the country that does it.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Acatalepsy The Map To Madness Since: Mar, 2010
The Map To Madness
#145: Sep 1st 2010 at 1:10:49 PM

Getting a stable orbital velocity would help. Sure, you can get up there, but once you turn the anti-grav off, you fall back down. You need the tangential velocity to stay up there.

Why would you turn it off?

Now that I think about it I'm not sure that WWI tech, even with magic antigrav, could create a space elevator, though there might be a way. But I am sure that they could get to, say, the Moon.

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#146: Sep 1st 2010 at 1:16:28 PM

Fuel consumption. If the means to power the electrical system of the airships is limited to coal-fired boilers running a steam turbine (WWI tech), you got some issues on where to dump exhaust gasses, where the heat is going to go, where all this oxygen is going to come from, and all that stuff. Might spurn interesting research into Air-Independent Propulsion, though....

So, once at a nice 100-mile altitude or so, they turn the drives off to avoid all those concerns... Cue a sudden race to understand the importance of the tangential component of an orbit, and some attempts to strap on some rocket motors to the ship, after they all watch the latest airship make a crater with the ground.

Plus, Tuefel mentions that the system of generating anti-grav needs to work harder the higher the ship has to go, and the more massive the ship is.

Tuefel, is the system for propelling the ship horizontally through the air independent to the anti-grav system, or what?

edited 1st Sep '10 1:17:31 PM by pvtnum11

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#147: Sep 1st 2010 at 1:30:35 PM

the effect of shell splashes in water to help 'bracket' the target is unavailable

I've already mentioned that you can use timed fuses/proximity fuses to make the shell detonate (which will create a puff of smoke) and then use the smoke "balls" to direct your fire. After all, that's how AAA gunners got the correct range, height, etc. for their shells. They'd fire ranging shots, adjust the angle, etc. as necessary and continue firing until they started to score hits.

Locking you up on radar since '09
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#148: Sep 1st 2010 at 1:35:40 PM

Ah, I do remember that. Some sort of mechanism to set the fuse in the shell as they're loaded, via a range dial or setting, so the fuse explodes at a certain distance. As the gunners train on the target, they'll hae to adjust for lead angle, elevation and apparent range.

Someone will get rich quickly making accurate rangefinders...

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#149: Sep 1st 2010 at 1:40:12 PM

Proximity fuses came later, using the vibrations of the aircraft's engines to tell it when to detonate.

Locking you up on radar since '09
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#150: Sep 1st 2010 at 1:45:12 PM

Oooo, big enough shells might be able to fit a magnetic anomoly device. Detonates if it passes within a certain distance of the target - probably only good for wrecking exposed equipment...

Mesaure flight time beofre detonation, compute range, fire armor-piercing rounds, observe results.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

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