But isn't Mary sue stories characterized by the story distoring conviniently around the eponymous character's advantage? And there is a reason why Mary sues are so boring, Its bceuase they have no real flaws and never seem to lose. The reader knows already Mary Sue is gonna win, come back from the dead, get the hot guy,beat the bad guys, etc, mking it predictable and unexciting. And since Mary Sue always gets the spotlight to a certain degree, entirre plots will be gushing about her.
But I do agree that doing the opposite by ramming tons of flaws can be harmful too.
edited 19th Nov '10 3:03:56 PM by heartlessmushroom
Here's a quick profile for the co-protagonist of my planned webcomic: Takebachi Soramaru.
Prince Takebachi is a god—a descendant of the Eternal Emperor and the second of four children (and second son) of a powerful lord in what amounts to an extradimensional Empire. His parents both went into self-exile decades ago, and his older brother is currently imprisoned after betraying the Empire. Since then, Takebachi has been serving as lord of his family's estate, which is single most powerful in the Eternal Empire.
Appearance
Takebachi is very muscular, with wispy hair and Perma-Stubble. His skin is slightly tanned and his eyes an asian-esque almond shape. (It's revealed in-story that his heritage is based on Shinto and Persian gods, so he's essentially half-Persian, half-Japanese.)
Personality
Put simply, Takebachi is a True Neutral Blood Knight and Chivalrous Pervert. He cares about only two things: fighting and fucking, and will not concern himself with matters that don't lead to one or the other. He doesn't fight to win (unless he has to), but merely for the excitement of it. His fighting style is mostly self-taught, and he largely relies upon his instincts, reflexes and centuries of experience.
Takebachi likes things simple. He obfuscates stupidity most of the time, and rarely second-guesses an action he takes. He loves to be underestimated by opponents and challengers, and for opportunistic women to take advantage of his lechery. He tends to go with first decisions, rarely showing any wavering in his own confidence. Even if he fails more often that he succeeds, he simply deals with the consequences and moves on.
Plot and Themes
As the story begins, the Empire has tasked Takebachi with protecting one of their most important territories: the Earth. In the eyes of the Empire, the Earth dimension is a state under their domain and his job is to keep it safe and under their control. Unfortunately, a constant state of warfare over the past few centuries has prevented the Empire from watching it as closely as they should have been. As such, more and more humans are becoming wise to The Masquerade and are concerning themselves with matters beyond their scope. His job is to handle these problems at any cost.
This put him in direct opposition with my other protagonist: Tanjha, who is the Super-Soldier leader of a task force created to investigate these extradimensional beings and drive them off if need be. The relationship between Takebachi and Tanjha could be seen as a metaphor for their opposing ideals: anarchy, blind faith and unwavering confidence versus order, logic and pragmatism. In addition, I plan for the two opposing sides to become mutually gray as time goes on, and the governments of Earth begin seeking to create their own "empires" in other portions of the Multiverse.
Powers
Takebachi's power is somewhere between Type 2 and Type 3 on the Super Weight scale. At his base, he only has one main power: raw strength. However, he possesses a few other abilities which serve to facilitate that strength, gained in a unique way:
Some time ago, Takebachi seduced the Earth Mother Elemental (both to convince her to loan him power and because—hey, why not?). To his dismay, however, she afterwards bonded her spirit form to him both mentally and physically. Now, whenever he uses her power to bolster his, they begin to merge mentally and physically. Even worse, the spirit fused with him is immensely possessive and jealous and tends to sulk when he flirts or sleeps with other women (which, considering he has at least four wives—and doesn't plan to stop there—is a problem). Because of that, he often can only draw a fraction of her power—usually just enough to keep him alive.
So how does the idea sound to you, Tropers? Any advice/warnings that I should take to heart?
edited 19th Nov '10 4:07:44 PM by KingZeal
He sounds like a kind of Barbarian Hero who wants to live the life. I like the fact that he likes to be underestimated so he can get the upper hand afterwards. He also has a lot of room for character development.
Give him some quirks besides what he got already, that should make him more interesting In my opinion.
Is he doing his job protecting Earth willingly or was he offered something else in exchange, like sex or something else? What is this relation to this clingy Earth spirit?
Mention us what burns his ass and does he hate somebody most than anybody else?
edited 19th Nov '10 3:41:00 PM by heartlessmushroom
Excellent questions!
It's a political arrangement. Takebachi never wanted to take over his family's lordship, but was forced to after his treasonous brother (the real heir apparent) almost destroyed their entire reputation. As such, he's been fighting to restore his family honor by taking on greater and greater responsibilities. The irony is that he really doesn't want to do this, but merely does because of a promise made to his parents.
She could be called a part of his subconscious now, as well as the source of his power. Technically speaking, she's a woman who desires him above any and all else, which is what he always wanted.
She's also a form of Power Limiter. When she's feeling possessive and/or jealous, she'll refuse to grant him her full strength. (After all, if he's not giving her 100%, why should she do it for him?) Normally, she'll give him just enough power to make sure his life isn't threatened. Which can backfire if his opponent suddenly reveals that they are not left-handed.
Tanjha will probably be the single person who gets the most reaction from him. Takebachi isn't really a "hatred" type of guy, but he can become annoyed and frustrated. He'll find Tanjha to be annoying and hypocritical, because she's a Fettered Lawful Good with dark desires that she denies herself.
edited 19th Nov '10 4:13:40 PM by KingZeal
flirts are so great to write. gg
i may or may not post tomorrow with more critique. i am pretty drunk atm.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." TwitterWhat does Takebachi commonly wear? For some reason I pictured him wearing a Hakama while exposing his big manly chest in all its shirtless glory.
Also, I'm kind of riddled about your comment on Janice's backstory, should you suggest that It shouldn't be a determining factor to the story? Should I change it a bit?
Holy crap. You couldn't have been more accurate if you were reading my mind. Y-You're NOT, are you?
Up to you. Commonality isn't a bad thing; it allows people to familiarize themselves with the character quickly and it can make subverting other aspects of the character down the line more poignant.
In the end, it's your call.
OK, I promise this is the last time I'll bring him up, but since you asked, Cygan, I wouldn't mind some feedback on Flinn
.
Two of my main characters (Zenjiro and Kojiro) have pretty regular pasts, some unusual details about their family but aside that pretty normal. I thought having a character or 2 with unusual pasts would make for a more interesting casts doesn't it?
And , holy shit, I guess I guessed your character's looks somehow. And, does he prefer a weapon of choice or does he MURDER BEASTS WITH HIS BARE DAMN HANDS?
Unusual pasts are always interesting, but hard to identify with.
And, the latter of course. He never uses a weapon; Takebachi has turned every part of his body into a deadly weapon.
edited 19th Nov '10 5:09:56 PM by KingZeal
Oh man, so soon and your character already sounds like a lot of fun, killing people with his incredible manhood.
I'm pretty sure he has a foil (unless its your only main character) who is the complete opposite, What is his reaction to this foil?
Any Lawful character can be considered his opposite. Takebachi isn't chaotic exactly (he has standards), but he doesn't believe in metaphysical concepts like "good, evil, morality or immorality". Rather, he believes in living and let living and can't stand having someone else's ideals impeding on his good time. As such, he probably has four "opposites": his best friend Kuroshin, his older brother Juusuke, his first wife Aoi, and the co-protagonist of the story, Tanjha. Except for Juusuke (who is also his Arch-Nemesis), he gets along fairly well with them all. As I said before, he likes Tanjha, but finds the fact that she holds back the Blood Knight within annoying.
In the past, several enemies have attempted to use his battle lust and . . . er . . . actual lust against him. Takebachi tends to walk right into these traps without a moment hesitation. For example, he once had an affair with a woman who constantly tried to poison him in bed...And he forced his body to develop an immunity to each one. The woman behind it continued to plot against him for decades . . . and now, she's his third wife.
I'm trying to avoid gender Unfortunate Implications in my story... any advice?
I have a small main cast, but of the five really important female characters (not counting minor characters. My exact definition of minor character is kind of vague but whatever, these are the most important ones.):
- One of them is a Posthumous Character in the form of the protagonist's mother. She never actually appears and her occupation, if any is left vague. She was killed by the antagonist, an alien species, when the protagonist was going to elementary school.
- One of them is a Posthumous Character in the form of the protagonist's girlfriend. She does appear in flashbacks. She was killed by the antagonist, an alien species, when the protagonist was going to high school.
- One of them is a girl that the protagonist once had a crush on but lost. Her most important scene is when she's found in the present day, homeless and disabled because of an attack from the alien species antagonist.
- One of them is a member of the alien species. She is a successful businesswoman, and she killed the protagonist's girlfriend, but she did so when she was a child so she can't remember it. The protagonist has to put up with seeing her at work every day and he does a pretty good job of bottling it up inside, until the end when he goes on an Invasion of the Body Snatchers style rant thorugh the whole town.
- One of them doesn't have a speaking role but is more important than most of the speaking role female characters anyways. She is the only person that does not directly know the protagonist that believes him when he tells everyone about the attack being planned by the alien species' government.
Of course, we have to consider the main male characters too to make a good judgement:
- One of them is the protagonist's father, who mostly exists to give the protagonist a gift at the beginning of the book.
- One of them is the protagonist's best friend, who helps him set up the scheme that leads to the aforementioned insane rant and has various discussions with him.
- One of them is the protagonist's boss, who is a sort of combination of Misplaced Kindergarten Teacher, Pointy-Haired Boss, and Corrupt Corporate Executive. He doesn't really advance the plot and only exists to waste the protagonist's time and fire him when he goes on his insane rant.
- One of them is the protagonist's coworker who is killed by the alien species and is then fired.
...and there aren't really any more. I mean, there are other male characters, just like there are other female characters, but none important enough to be part of the "main cast".
I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...King Zeal, your character truly is a Badass Rated M for Manly without being Stuish, and I really like that. The only thng that would make him even more badass is if he rode Great white sharks on his spare time.
I'd like you ti check my other 2 characters out and give me some comments and advise on them.
I did post in the other thread but I didn't start it.
I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...So, does anyone else have any thoughts on Mira
?
Also, I'm thinking of writing up another character eventually.
edited 19th Nov '10 6:18:06 PM by ozaiangels
Zenjiro
Zenjiro is interesting to me because he's a lot like Takebachi in a way. The difference between the two is that Zenjiro seems to like going out of his way to grab the Hero Ball while Takebachi doesn't care about that sort of thing at all. It makes me feel like Zenjiro is somewhat shonen-like, and likes to do everything himself while telling people he perceives as weaker to Stay in the Kitchen. Is this true? And does this affect his outlook on women?
Also interesting to me is his fighting style. You say he uses "martial arts", but that his body is built for speed rather than power. So it follows reason that he's most likely a hit-and-run type of fighter who uses the element of surprise to do as much damage as possible (possibly with weapons or traps) before high-tailing it away from retaliation. Parkour is an art that's meant to maximize escape above all else, so how does he fair in situations where escape isn't option or isn't the best option?
Kojiro
When I think of gadgeteer characters, my first mind is always Tony Stark. One thing I love about Tony is that he doesn't coast on one single invention or markup of that single invention. Unlike Spider-man, who's been using roughly the same web-shooters for decades, Tony constantly upgrades his armor and gadgets to deal with greater and greater demand. This was one of the things I planned on incorporating into my other protagonist (Tanjha), because part of being a soldier means that warfare is constantly changing and tools of war are constantly made obsolete. Anyway, I say this because when a character is tech-savvy, I think of them as a symbol of change. Technology is a reflection of life itself; both are always changing and evolving.
I also find it interesting how you'll balance out the Order vs. Chaos struggle in your story. It seems our individual sets of characters are pretty similar in a lot of ways, so your perspective on a similar conundrum has my interest.
edited 19th Nov '10 6:40:36 PM by KingZeal
Mira
The fact that Mira can't read (in this world) is interesting. It would most likely result in her being treated like an air-headed, ditzy dumbass, and if she's even remotely attractive, that would probably attract a lot of guys (like my Takebachi, heh). I can see her walking into wrong bathrooms, slipping on wet floors, disobeying minor laws, and other things. Her illiteracy is something I could REALLY stand to have some fun with.
edited 19th Nov '10 6:49:19 PM by KingZeal
@King Zeal- ... I could give advice on your character, but I'm not too sure that any advice I give you would be constructive. I don't think I'd feel comfortable tryig to get inside his head.
I will still try, if you want. Just... Keep that in mind.
@Loni Jay- How does Flinn react to the hostility surrouding it? Does he keep his held high, or strike back? Has he met any other Crl during his stay in the Border Guard? If so what were their interactions like? How does Milo reeact to the discrimination Flinn is experiencing? How does Flinn react to the fact tht the only reason most of the Guards are accepting of him is that he helped to defend people, not because of his own merits?
@ch00beh- So they don't lie to each other. Okay. Why do the two stick with each other once they're outside of the facility? Is there any reason for it? How do the two like their living spaces? How does Rie react to people flirting with her?
@ozaiangels- I don't suppose you can give us more details about her relationships? More information always helps, you see. I'd especiaally like some details about her relationship with Felicia.
Also, write up another character outline if you want. We'll do our best to give awesome feedback to it.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!Hey guys, that's some good advice, thanks! I do think Hermia will make a good villain. In fact, when I first created her, she was meant to be one. I took the Litmus test before and she seems to have just a bit of Mary Sue, not a serious case. I can just cure her easily. Now that you mention it, I think she'll end up a lot more interesting if I make her a villain.
Yeah, his preference to do things his way is true, but he would never tell such a thing to a woman, emphazising on Chivalrous here. He would, however, tell off authority he percieves as weak or incapable of pushing him around. While he has his way with a good amount of women, an equal amount of them don't find his flirting charming and he does get hurt when that happens, like with Janice, who hates being flirted on.
As for the Hero Ball, I guess it could be justified that he got bullied around a lot in his childhood and wants to prevent bullies to do the same to others. He might unsettle other with his chaotic habits but he is really good at heart.
When he can't run, he'd first look around his surroundings on what he could use to his advantage. Even when unable to run away he could use his superior agility to confuse and tire larger foes. When he cant use neither,he goes for a style similar to Jeet Kune Do, albeit he is better at Parkour.
Yeah, Tony is indeed an interesting gadgeteer, constantly upgrading his armor in order to fece furter obstacles. I had something similar planned for Kojiro, but instead with a Mini-Mecha. Starting out with a very basic and bare-bones model , adding in new stuff to it it as the story goes by. He also makes new weapons for the team after he takes lessons from the weapons expert, building Janice a better rifle and giving Zenjiro several gadgets that will help his style of fighting.
And yes, they are all going for a Shonen comic.
I'm still curious on your opinion on Kojiro's overal personality.
edited 19th Nov '10 7:27:59 PM by heartlessmushroom
I will still try, if you want. Just... Keep that in mind.
Haha, I figured as much. Do as you like.
He seems to me like a character who prefers to play it safe. He'd likely hesitate when faced with a complex problem, being more worried about destroying something good than changing something bad. I wonder how he'd react to a situation where every possible outcome is a major loss.

Not everyone has a debilitating phobia, plus also: I don't think avoiding the slipperly slope towards Mary Sue is anything really effected by bolting on Flaws and keeping the characterization mostly the same. All that does is turn Classic Sue into Jerkass Sue or some other variety.
Although I think too many unpublished authors are way too paranoid about Mary Sue without really understanding what's bad about Mary Sue in the first place. It's not that she's too perfect or any of a million other symptoms. The true flaw is that stories about her are boring. It's the boring that makes readers hate her.
A brighter future for a darker age.