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Jan 16th 2010 at 12:57:48 AM

Given the fact that I'm primarily an EXE/Battle Network fan, perhaps I should be -seriously- BAWWWWWW-ing about the fact that Zero gets a collection while we get crappy Operate Shooting Star.

But it's midnight here and I should really wait and see how the collection turns out to be. I suspect the collection is mostly Capcom trying to test the waters again, but being a little smarter about it this time.

Why did Capcom have to test the waters with OSS? Most of us knew it was going to bomb sales-wise from the start. Capcom, what did you expect, you just "ported over/remade" the first game, which didn't have strong sales to begin with in EXE terms.

This move might have not only screwed over our chances of ever getting a true EXE game again (which I honestly don't care about, where in the world can "EXE 7" begin, given that EXE 6 actually -ended- the series? I doubt they want to pull an "X6" here), but perhaps a new EXE-timeline series (which is the one I'm really concerned about), or even a new Star Force. Blah.

...Hm, I should quickly leave before I get personally attacked by the more Fan Dumb Classic timeline fans.

edited 16th Jan '10 12:59:30 AM by Alilatias

BagofMagicFood Second banana
Second banana
Feb 1st 2010 at 6:03:21 PM

Nah, they should pull an X6. Star Force hasn't happened yet! The pointless epilogue of EXE 6 hasn't even happened yet! Lan's story can keep on going!

"Doorknobs: not actually that long a period of historical significance."
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
Feb 1st 2010 at 6:21:11 PM

Not only that, but it's not like the story ends when Lan and Mayl hook up. Really, with a good writing staff that's where the real fun starts.

Inanimate Vigilante Philanthropist
Vigilante Philanthropist
Feb 1st 2010 at 6:25:03 PM

I think a new Star Force would definitely be cool; and Battle Network, too. I miss that series!

Also, Mega Man Legends. Enough said.

Your happiness is mine.
Brickman Gentleman Adventurer! from wherever adventure takes me Relationship Status: My own grandpa
Gentleman Adventurer!
Feb 1st 2010 at 7:34:06 PM

I've got Battle Networks 6, 3, 5 and 4, in that order (aka the order I spotted them in the used games bin). 6 and 3 have the best writing out of those, I won't question that. They also have a higher level of polish and overall quality, arguably. The main plus side for 6 is that it has the cross system and the beast system, which are very fun even if they make the game too easy (and unlike the corresponding gimmick in every other entry, the crosses actually feel balanced), and probably has the least fluff/filler anywhere to be found in the series (maybe I'm just remembering it wrong since I played it first, but there sure as hell weren't story-required missions for the job board). 3 has the style system, which I have to say is the most goddamn stupid thing I have ever heard of; it does not make the game more fun or add anything interesting to combat, it just adds an absurd ammount of grinding and just enough luck to piss you off to the task of 100% completion (since there's many, MANY chips you can only get in a specific style, most being objectively better than their counterparts, most of the good customizer programs are gotten exclusively by getting the right style, but you can only change styles by killing something like 200 random battles and then have to cross your fingers that you get the one you want). What 3 holds above 6 is the fact that 6 is by far the easiest in the series; overpowered chips are handed out like candy, every Navi chip would have been considered massively overpowered in most of the rest of the series, you can shove more stuff in the customizer than ever before, and you've got the most powerful innate abilities (the crosses and the beast outs) yet. 6 also has a lousy Bonus Dungeon while 3 has a great one. I'd say both are worth it. Interestingly, the plot for 6 feels like it was written for someone new to the series, with almost no references or acknowledgment for anything Lan's done until the end except for cameos from past allies and the big reveal from the first game being hidden from you as if you didn't know it until the point where it becomes plot-appropriate, while 3 (and even moreso 5) acknowledges that Lan's already a hero by this point, with people coming back for revenge and occasionally people recognizing and acknowledging his feats, and said reveal is treated as if You Should Know This Already. So despite being the end of the series it feels "right" to play 6 before 3.

4 and 5 are different. Everyone bags on them, and I agree they're flawed in some ways. 5 has inconsistent but generally decent writing (though I personally liked the feel of its plot, with you recruiting allies one at a time and them then actively helping you from then on rather than showing up for a Big Damn Heroes cutscene, because it didn't feel so much like a completely disjointed set of scenarios—there was actually something connecting them all), and the combat's a bit harder but arguably for the wrong reasons (you're starved of good chips and most chips only come in one or maybe two codes. Also, navi chips suck). Souls are plenty fun, though not really balanced in this game (wood cross lets you do double damage with two elements? Yeah, only a limited number of times, but that number's plenty high). After playing enough that I was looking for a challenge by this point that's good in one way, but that's the least satisfying way of making harder they could've enacted). I liked the liberation missions, personally, but the scenarios... ugh. The drill scenario was torturous on a D-Pad, and I actually couldn't beat the goddamn 100-man-battle minigame a little while later—that ended up being a brick wall because there's no way in hell I could do that on even a good gameboy-sized D-Pad, rather less the barely-functioning one I have. So I only ever saw half the game, and annoyingly got stuck at a point in the plot where the good shopkeepers have all abandonned their posts so I can only even have a limited amount of fun refighting the boss ghosts. It's a shame; I really am tempted to find an emulator and play the thing on my computer, just so I can see and enjoy the rest of the game; I know I could beat those things with a keyboard.

4 is the most flawed, but also the one with the longest longevity for a sufficiently skilled player. Its writing is absolute shit, and many if not most of the scenarios are just lame, but it is far and away the hardest (and longest, if you bother with the new game plus) game in the series. Not by starving you of chips like 5 (though they are doled out more carefully than in 3 and 6), not by any kind of fake difficulty. Just by making the enemies harder. And harder. And harder. Most of the foes from the other games are a piece of cake compared to the foes you'll encounter in 4's normal mode, and your chip library is varied and wide but contains very few powerchips and a lot of level 1s which you have to use skillfully to get anywhere. And then once you beat the game you get sent back to do it again, and the enemies are suddenly very fast and very strong and you need clever combos and good strategy just to beat random encounters (helped by the game giving you access to ever more chips to choose from, mostly of the level 2 variety now), where in the other games it's generally bad luck if you can't wipe out any random encounter outside of the bonus dungeon in one shot, two tops. And then you get to the third time around, and everything's lightning fast and absurdly strong and you need to resort to the most powerful combo you can come up with just to put down the random encounters, and the bosses are beefed up and sped up to match, and you're somehow still playing through scenarios (even if only a few are new each time and the ones you have to play all three times are a bore) and scripted boss fights and you're finding new chips and mystery data at a point where if you'd wiped your save file on one of the others and started over you'd still have run out of game.

So 4 is the lowest in quality, by any real measure of quality, but richest in challenge and longevity by far. It's still the one that's paid for itself best.

/Battle Network

I also have Zero 1 and 2. I've gotten up to the final boss of Zero 1 (by ignoring my rank) and practically nowhere in 2 (by paying attention to it), but ultimately between the fact that I'm unused to using a D-Pad instead of a keyboard (especially for double-tap dashing) and the fact that my D-Pad sucks I haven't been able to derive full enjoyment value out of them either. Again, I wonder if maybe I should just find an emulator—I own copies, so I have no problem with it morally.

Your funny quote here! (Maybe)
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
Feb 1st 2010 at 8:16:03 PM

Okay holy shit that's a lot of text I dunno if I can read that.

I did kinda like the style system, but that's because Bug Style was Crazy Awesome.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
jtmmachine Shadow Man from The Other Side
Shadow Man
Feb 1st 2010 at 9:24:57 PM

@Brickman: After reading what you posted, I think you'd really like Mega Man Battle Network 2.

  • Its Style system has fewer options than MMBN3, but at the same time none of them are necessary to get 100%. They don't give you any prizes for leveling them up, so there's no reason to stick with a Style you don't like either. You still have to grind a lot before you can get a Style, though.
  • Like MMBN3, there's a Request Board for sidequests. I don't believe any of them are mandatory either.
  • The scenarios, if nothing else, have a wide variety: there's a unique gimmick for every one, though depending on your tastes some of them may come across as Scrappy Mechanics (Airplane Comp especially can be a pain).
  • Refighting the 3rd versions of Navis is much simpler than in 3, as they stay in the same area you fought their 2nd versions in instead of moving to a completely different area. This is also how it's done in MMBN1.
  • Difficulty-wise, it'll probably seem easy after you've played through all of MMBN4. Just, if you want any challenge at all, don't use Gater. There's also a hard mode, but you can only unlock it if you get all 5 stars.
  • There aren't as many side tasks as there are in MMBN3 (no Omega Navis or Time Trials), but the Bonus Dungeon is pretty cool, supplies foreshadowing for the next game and, in my opinion, is harder than 3's Bonus Dungeon in terms of random encounters and bosses.
  • I'm not sure about the actual quality of the writing, but it's definitely... grittier than 3. "Damn" and "hell" are used surprisingly often, for one thing, and the NPC's can get vulgar for an E(?)-rated game.
  • MMBN2's main flaw is the number of enemies that have a very low drop rate for their chips. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 12 which require an 8+ rank to POSSIBLY get their chip. Most of them are either very rare encounters, appear in only a single section of just one area of the game, or both. You'll need to get lucky with PA's to succeed.

I've only played the first 3 and Transmission though, so I can't compare it to the latter 3... It has been quoted on this wiki as being considered the best in the series though, if that means anything.

edited 2nd Feb '10 3:25:29 PM by jtmmachine

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
Feb 1st 2010 at 9:29:51 PM

Aw, I've never played the second (or the first for that matter). Now I feel deprived.

That's the one with Gospel? Or Dream Virus? I get confused and only know them from the soundtracks...

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
jtmmachine Shadow Man from The Other Side
Shadow Man
Feb 1st 2010 at 9:43:23 PM

'Tis the one with Gospel. I highly recommend the second game, but I don't think you'll miss much if you skip the first one (that one has the Dream/Life Virus). It's interesting to see how the series started, but in comparison to the others it feels unpolished (enemy names aren't listed, all the Internet areas look the same so you get lost easily, you HAVE to use the Escape chip to run from battles, and HP recovers after each battle). It's the easiest in the series too: the most HP any boss has is 1000... and you can still stockpile your folder with plenty of chips with 100+ attack, and that's WITHOUT using PAs. Plus, as stated earlier, damage doesn't carry over from battle.

Though, as far as I know, it's the only game in the series where you can fight (corrupted versions of) the little green programs you see all over the place... if that makes any difference.

edited 1st Feb '10 9:45:42 PM by jtmmachine

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
Feb 1st 2010 at 9:45:52 PM

So that's where those are from! On this (megaman, actually) forum I used to use I had a sig personality test that pegged me as one of those, and I thought that it was an edit.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
BagofMagicFood Second banana
Second banana
Feb 1st 2010 at 9:52:21 PM

Right, 1 is nice if you think the other games are too complicated and their battles too difficult, but you like solving mazes more.

But 2 introduces Styles, and it lets you keep TWO extra styles at once, which is very nice. So when you get a new style, you don't have to dump your favorite right away; you can keep one style as your "main" and have another as an "experimental", the way you can do with multiple folders in that game.

The other thing to note about playing EXE 1 and 2 after all the others is that they're before the invention of the Navi Customizer. This means there are some hard limits on all of Mega Man's stats. Instead of placing and removing powers temporarily, you only get to collect a finite number of Power Ups that permanently upgrade your Mega Buster.

"Doorknobs: not actually that long a period of historical significance."
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
Feb 1st 2010 at 9:55:15 PM

Aw, I like the Cust. Especially HUB.BAT. That made me happy.

Why on earth would they get rid of that style experiment thing? It's perfect. Overpowered, maybe...?

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
BagofMagicFood Second banana
Second banana
Feb 1st 2010 at 10:02:30 PM

Maybe... I think the theory is they wanted to emphasize the "social" aspect of the game, encouraging kids to find other kids who played EXE and link up to trade stuff that would be hard to get on their own.

The first two games do have their own forms of Hub.batch. The second game has it as a Style, actually, though you have to get S Level on every level 3 boss to get it, so by that point you've done almost everything else anyway. The first game only lets you use it in the areas right before the final boss, and it acts more like a prototype Super Armor + beyond-the-maximum Buster.

Oh, and another thing about 1 and 2: If you're smart, you can duplicate one-time item pick-ups, without even needing a second cartridge! The idea is that beating the final boss saves over your battle chips, but nothing else about your game file, so if you collect a one-time chip and then run over to beat the final boss without saving in between, you keep the chip, and you can go back and get it again!

"Doorknobs: not actually that long a period of historical significance."
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
Feb 1st 2010 at 10:04:31 PM

Ah. Can't stand that "social" stuff. My nearest neighbor is miles away...

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
BagofMagicFood Second banana
Second banana
Feb 1st 2010 at 10:07:51 PM

Yeah, I'm sure it's one of those things that makes more sense in Japan. I think that's why everyone makes a big deal about having Wi-Fi online play in new Mega Man RP Gs, because then they don't have to be lucky enough to live near someone else who plays the game in order to do everything in it.

"Doorknobs: not actually that long a period of historical significance."
Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Feb 1st 2010 at 11:34:21 PM

Just so we know, which style you get MMBN 2 and 3 isn't random, except for the element. In theory, it's based on your playing style, but in practice what they do is add up points based on your actions in battle and whichever is highest wins (and in the case of a tie they have an arbitrary priority system). So if you use the mega buster a lot you'll get Guts style and if you load a lot of chips per turn you'll get Custom style. Well, I always got Shield style repeatedly because you get a huge amount of points for not getting hit and I try not to get hit.

I wasn't too sorry to see them go though.

BagofMagicFood Second banana
Second banana
Feb 2nd 2010 at 12:09:50 AM

Well from what I read, not getting hit only counts a little bit toward Shield, while sending defensive chips and recovery chips counts a lot more. And then of course, Team style requires sending a lot of Navi chips.

I forgot to mention, Battle Network 1 lets you put TEN copies of any non-Navi battle chip into your folder. Yes, for real, you can make a folder with only three different chips in it. So you see, while the early games don't have as many features, they also don't have as many limitations, which can make things more fun. (Or just plain easier, I suppose.)

"Doorknobs: not actually that long a period of historical significance."
Feb 2nd 2010 at 1:58:38 AM

Strangely, I found 3 to be harder than 4, although that's probably because Bass Omega raped me, repeatedly. Gospel is the coolest looking final boss in the series, it's also tied at the easiest (with the Life Virus), Alpha and Duo are the hardest, and Nebula Grey and the beasts lie around there.

Brickman Gentleman Adventurer! from wherever adventure takes me Relationship Status: My own grandpa
Gentleman Adventurer!
Feb 2nd 2010 at 3:11:52 PM

The third round of BN 4 is way harder than anything in 3—if anything I eventually became annoyed that I couldn't experiment much anymore because I had to use one of two or three specific combos if I wanted to beat certain viruses at all (damn sheep ruin most of the combos too, it's probably more fun to just run from them, and the wheather series is a great way to thwart attacks that should've wiped out everything on screen). The V-coded Videoman/Supervulcan folder could only go so long before getting old. And I actually had to be careful not to run out of chips to hurt Duo with, since he has so much health and you don't have all the top tier chips you usually have by the end of the first run (and in the subsequent runs he just scales up), nevermind him having attacks you almost cannot dodge. I can't even remember what the boss of 3 looked like, and my version's boss of 6 (Falzar) was a pussy with nothing you couldn't easily dodge, but Duo is a monster.

3's bonus dungeon is challenging and fun, but you can beat it gung-ho if you want with just about any folder comprised of one or two codes you care to slap together; you can't approach super-hard mode of 4 without a super folder. 4's actual official bonus dungeon, after all three runs, near-100% completion and several 10-round endurance battles to get in, was a pathetic joke though; it's pretty much all shadows and since they don't drop any chips at all there's no point not running away from every fight if you fail to draw Blues SP or a lifesword. There's just a couple more unrepeatable one-time boss fights which with no rank to worry about are easier than their S-chip fights and a suped up version of the darksoul; why those assholes at capcom don't let their bonus bosses stick around to be re-beaten-up on command is beyond me, it would've made the dungeon a nice reward instead of the lameness it is. Guess that's one thing 6's bonus dungeon (and allies) and a few of 3's navis had going for them.

Note: This is all assuming you're not a total wuss and don't use the darkchips. Because honestly, you're not allowed to have a discussion about the game's difficulty if you use the "I win" button.

Your funny quote here! (Maybe)
BagofMagicFood Second banana
Second banana
Feb 2nd 2010 at 6:38:11 PM

I bet a lot of people who play these games on emulators and abuse savestates all the time end up with much weaker arsenals than they ought to have, since they can just keep barely making it through every battle unharmed with enough retries, or avoid battles altogether most of the time. But savestates also make it a little easier to get the right items to drop from a rare source, so maybe the frustration factors even out in the end.

"Doorknobs: not actually that long a period of historical significance."
Brickman Gentleman Adventurer! from wherever adventure takes me Relationship Status: My own grandpa
Gentleman Adventurer!
Feb 2nd 2010 at 6:56:14 PM

Getting your arsenal requires you do three things: Explore for mystery data/beat setpieces, beat every enemy several times (not for random drops, just for the fact that you want four of each chip), and beat every enemy several times at S or near S rank (same). Beating a lot of random encounters and trading the chips can help a bit. Savestates could make getting S-ranks easier, but a random encounter won at poor rank is still a net positive. The main things they'd help with are encountering the enemy you want and cheating your ass off with the chip trader.

Your funny quote here! (Maybe)
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
Feb 2nd 2010 at 6:58:47 PM

Note: This is all assuming you're not a total wuss and don't use the darkchips. Because honestly, you're not allowed to have a discussion about the game's difficulty if you use the "I win" button.

Heheh, I knew a guy who used them so much that Duo always flattened him. A video game karma system actually works for once! wink

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
BagofMagicFood Second banana
Second banana
Feb 2nd 2010 at 7:24:22 PM

What, from the lowered HP? There aren't ways of dealing with that against Duo?

"Doorknobs: not actually that long a period of historical significance."
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
Feb 2nd 2010 at 7:25:54 PM

Well, he had the minimum HP. Like 101 or something.

Plus, he used darkchips, so he wasn't terribly great to start with. waii

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
BagofMagicFood Second banana
Second banana
Feb 2nd 2010 at 7:32:29 PM

But the dark chips MADE him great, right?

"Doorknobs: not actually that long a period of historical significance."

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