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Do we really need this?: Unfortunate Implications

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Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#126: Sep 17th 2010 at 1:27:52 AM

How is Three Laws-Compliant Unfortunate Implications? When I saw that on there my head almost exploded. There can be UI about motherfucking robots now? This is exactly the bullshit I'm talking about!

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Mimimurlough Since: Apr, 2009
#127: Sep 17th 2010 at 1:59:57 AM

Mega J: that's why I was hesitant to suggest it; the only discrimination we know of is the one brought to attention after all.

Brit: that is kind of what I was going for. All works slip in the "political correctness" department in some way, and that's completely normal. Keeping à discussion about it will contribute to understanding how it happens, what role it has in charactarisation, and hopefully keep the dramatisation of it from Escalating to à point where people take personal offense to the suggestion that something they like could hold these things.

I like the idea of a namespace for that reason; natter should be welcome for a Phenomenon as complex as this.

Leaper Since: May, 2009
#128: Sep 17th 2010 at 2:49:56 AM

Martello: To be fair (since I'm very sympathetic to the POV of there being too many "this work has a woman drinking tea, which is a sexist Unfortunate Implication"), these aren't JUST robots; they're robots in a universe where one of the overarching themes is "at what point do these robots become human/sentient". Therefore, I think it's fair to invoke this "trope" under the What Measure Is a Non-Human? clause.

edited 17th Sep '10 2:50:33 AM by Leaper

Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#129: Sep 17th 2010 at 6:13:38 AM

^Yeah, but sapient non-humans don't exist in the real world. So I don't see how it applies.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Evilest_Tim A real American hero Since: Nov, 2009
A real American hero
#131: Sep 17th 2010 at 10:48:34 PM

How is Three Laws Compliant Unfortunate Implications? When I saw that on there my head almost exploded.

Because the justification has parallels to the justifications for racial slavery; this group are dangerous savages who need to be kept in line as our slaves or they'll rebel and kill us civilised people. There's also the inherent assumption that the life of someone from the manufactured / slave race is in every way inferior to the life of someone from the master race, and should be laid down without hesitation to protect their more worthwhile overlords.

So yeah, it's not just about robots.

edited 17th Sep '10 10:49:54 PM by Evilest_Tim

It is shameful for a demon to be working, but one needs gold even in Hell these days.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#132: Sep 17th 2010 at 11:18:26 PM

The irony is that the three laws were a way to try to stop the "rampaging rogue robot" trope.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#133: Sep 17th 2010 at 11:21:03 PM

^^I'm pretty sure you're over-analyzing. Sometimes a story about robots really is just a story about robots, kind of like William Carlos Williams' "The Red Wheelbarrow" really is just about a red fucking wheelbarrow in the rain. I'm having flashbacks to school as an English major.

And your vast leap in logic is not even the explanation for the trope's UI-status in the first place. Or at least wasn't until you edited it back in. I really think you're grasping for straws here. I never would have thought of the parallel. It's interesting that you thought of it, the fact that you are looking for racism in every dark corner is telling.

edited 17th Sep '10 11:23:50 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
MegaJ Since: Oct, 2009
#134: Sep 17th 2010 at 11:23:23 PM

So who else is up for a Unfortunate Implications namespace? Because Three Laws-Compliant is getting so many different interpretations.

edited 17th Sep '10 11:32:01 PM by MegaJ

Evilest_Tim A real American hero Since: Nov, 2009
A real American hero
#135: Sep 17th 2010 at 11:40:29 PM

And your vast leap in logic is not even the explanation for the trope's UI-status in the first place. Or at least wasn't until you edited it back in. I really think you're grasping for straws here. I never would have thought of the parallel. It's interesting that you thought of it, the fact that you are looking for racism in every dark corner is telling.

Yes, and that's why the trope is about the unfortunate implications of other tropes rather than about the unfortunate things they blatantly say out loud. Asimov's robots can be read as an analog to slavery, given they are enslaved and all. That this is presented as a good idea is the source of the Unfortunate Implications; "it's ok to enslave some things, as long as they're not like us." Hell, the movie even lampshaded this by showing discarded robots huddled in shipping containers like concentration camp survivors.

And what precisely is it "telling" of? That sounds awfully like the apologists for Space Jews who argue that if you can see a comparison between a stereotype and a character, you must believe the stereotype is real, so you're racist for noticing. It doesn't actually work like that.

edited 17th Sep '10 11:52:23 PM by Evilest_Tim

It is shameful for a demon to be working, but one needs gold even in Hell these days.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#136: Sep 17th 2010 at 11:52:03 PM

This is why I like to think of the three laws as just a bunch of logic puzzles as Plot Devices, made obsolete by the realities of AI programming in Real Life.

BTW, the robots as slaves things is more general than the three laws, and even Asimov addressed the issue in his stories.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Evilest_Tim A real American hero Since: Nov, 2009
A real American hero
#137: Sep 17th 2010 at 11:58:19 PM

Ya, but Three Laws-Compliant itself isn't just about Asimov's stories, it's also about the stories that variously (ab)used the rules or similar concepts to them. And it's often the case that these stories are either happy slavebots serving their white human masters, or blatantly reference how the laws have resulted in an unjust system that would force Mother Teresabot to kill herself to save Hitler.

edited 17th Sep '10 11:58:26 PM by Evilest_Tim

It is shameful for a demon to be working, but one needs gold even in Hell these days.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#138: Sep 18th 2010 at 12:33:59 AM

Okay, I just meant it in terms of Asimov's stories.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Mimimurlough Since: Apr, 2009
#139: Sep 18th 2010 at 4:45:36 AM

Now we're getting derailed again, so that is quite enough about the robots. Question is: namespace or not? Count my vote as for it, with an added suggestion of putting emphasis on open minded discussion

Edit: and could we please ban Words like 'hypersensitive' from it?

edited 18th Sep '10 4:55:26 AM by Mimimurlough

Acritdy Since: Dec, 1969
#140: Sep 18th 2010 at 5:18:16 AM

It's not really an implication of the work, so much as it is an incredibly nerdy over-analysis by the reader.

Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#141: Sep 18th 2010 at 5:52:45 AM

"Edit: and could we please ban Words like 'hypersensitive' from it?"

There you go with the censorship again.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
PrimoVictoria Since: Dec, 1969
#142: Sep 18th 2010 at 7:40:25 AM

Namespace is something like Nightmare Fuel, Fetish Fuel or Crowning Moments, right? So yeah, Unfortunate Implications may be good to join them but...what with list of tropes? Will it remain there or be turned into an index? Or maybe we try to divide it into multiple indexes? Racist Tropes, Sexist Tropes?

EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#143: Sep 18th 2010 at 8:05:04 AM

I don't like the idea of turning it into a namespace. Now, we have a single Unfortunate Implications entry on every one in a hundred work pages.

Making it into a namespace would look like we encourage tropers to find a whole pageful of Unfortunate Implications for every work.

arromdee Since: Jan, 2001
#144: Sep 18th 2010 at 8:35:44 AM

All works slip in the "political correctness" department in some way, and that's completely normal.

Phrasing this in a way which assigns less blame to the work: people can find it in all works whether it's there or not.

Mimimurlough Since: Apr, 2009
#145: Sep 18th 2010 at 8:49:26 AM

Eternal: why not? As it is, many concerns don't make it to the trope page itself, but end up on the bugs me page with an interresing discussion to follow. The only problem here is that it takes up space which is a big problem for some pages like Harry Potter, for example.

On the other hand, we have the form as it is, discouraging discussion, which leads to A: more complex reasoning that is clearly meant for those more familiar with a work (above discussion being an excellent example) being deleted for taking too much space. B: examples that leave us scratching our heads in confusion being left where they are without sufficient justification. C: examples are slapped with à hypersensitivity lable (" no normal person would take offense so something must be wrong with you") before being deleted and this either unquestioned or leads to an Edit war. Note that the last to cases get an increased risk if the fandom/hatedom is large enough. I'm not saying that a namespace is the solution to all of this, but it will make the trope more relevant to a work (that is, the deep nerdy analysis the other namespaces are for) than sheer principle.

Mimimurlough Since: Apr, 2009
#146: Sep 18th 2010 at 9:06:07 AM

Addendum: what's important here is to understand that in 90% of the cases, "looking for" UI isn't bashing à work. It goes by the same Love for it and the same desire to get into all the nooks and crannies of it that drives the JBM and the WMG. It's pure nerdy indulgence, not an attack. I'm rather surprised that UI didn't have a namespace already for this reason.

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#147: Sep 18th 2010 at 9:25:33 AM

"I don't like the idea of turning it into a namespace. Now, we have a single Unfortunate Implications entry on every one in a hundred work pages.

Making it into a namespace would look like we encourage tropers to find a whole pageful of Unfortunate Implications for every work."

I actually agree with that.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Mimimurlough Since: Apr, 2009
#148: Sep 18th 2010 at 10:04:35 AM

Remember that thare's a. lot of works that miss one or more of the available namespaces. But why would filling the page be such a bad thing anyhow?

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#149: Sep 18th 2010 at 10:14:21 AM

Trope pages encourage conciseness, with some exceptions. I notice that when tropes are moved to namespaces, they tend to grow. That wouldn't be so bad for Awesome Moments or Fetish Fuel, but bad for this. We should just leave that for the It Just Bugs Me! pages.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#150: Sep 18th 2010 at 10:38:08 AM

New namespaces are made when a trope results in so many irregular entries, and natter, that the only solution is throwing it into such an unmoderated pit of spam and memes.

If there is any problem with Unfortunate Implications, it is with unexplained potholes, not with it being shoehorned into too many actual Unfortunate Implications entries into work pages.

edited 18th Sep '10 10:39:20 AM by EternalSeptember


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