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Toradora and other anime that cause internet backdraft

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Poke2201 Poke2201 from My Room Since: Jul, 2009
Poke2201
#276: Jun 28th 2010 at 9:05:47 PM

Sigh I never got Death Note, nor do I want to.

"Love is like war: Easy to begin but hard to end." - Anonymous
Soliferrum Intelligent Fool from The Crown of Babel Since: Jun, 2010
Intelligent Fool
#277: Jun 28th 2010 at 9:09:18 PM

Lessee... Code Geass and Haruhi Suzumiya come to mind. Most "moe" shows, too.

Everything is better as a Dunkleosteus.
Superior Since: Sep, 2009
#278: Jun 29th 2010 at 12:33:21 PM

Ok, I just recently watched Toradora. I love it.

But seriously, what the fuck is this "it's all the same shit" shit? The same as what, exactly? It's not even like X Meets Y, or the characters being expies, it's just "too generic" because you can predict the pairings!?

When I started watching this, I only knew that there is some backdraft about the ending, so I partially expected that they will either still hook up with their Paolos, or don't hook up with anyone. And these would be the only reasons for such whining.

It's a Rom Com! Watching a pair getting together is the whole point! That's why people watch them. Objectively looking, a Twist Ending would be a flaw in such a story.

I mean, just look at yourselves: The title practically translates as "Taiga x Ryuuji", the OP is full of them together, she is the First Girl, and you feel cheated, when they actually get together? Imagine what would happen if the above mentioned premise would be ignored in favor of being more "original", and choosing the pairings that those few people expect who hate Taiga, but keep watching because they were too dumb to recognize the foreshadowing? The rest of the viewers, the overwhelming majority would rightly feel betrayed.

De gustibus non est disputandum.
ManwiththePlan Since: Dec, 2009
#279: Jun 29th 2010 at 12:40:58 PM

I mean, just look at yourselves: The title practically translates as "Taiga x Ryuuji", the OP is full of them together, she is the First Girl, and you feel cheated, when they actually get together?

But...that's percisely why I don't really like the series. If it's made so blatantly obvious from the beggining that the designated main pairing is going to get together, there's no real drama or suspense in watching it. Sure there's drama in how they'll get there, but the inevitable outcome's already been spoiled for us.

So Yeah, I saw no point in going on with it, especially if the main pairing was between characters such as Taiga and Ryuji. Ick.

edited 29th Jun '10 12:42:07 PM by ManwiththePlan

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#280: Jun 29th 2010 at 1:05:16 PM

The problem I have with Toradora is that the two most boring characters are the main ones. Ryuji was bland and Taiga's brand of tsundere is one I find highly annoying. It wasn't a terrible or even bad show, but it doesn't even reach above average as far as I'm concerned. It's the crowning example of So Average, It's Okay for me.

Heffy Since: Jan, 2001
#281: Jun 29th 2010 at 1:09:55 PM

Huh. I had no idea Toradora was so strongly disliked.

I rather enjoyed it, myself. It had problems, yeah, and was a little cliche-ridden at points, but I thought it was an entertaining story. For some reason, I really wanted to know what happened to the characters next... I really don't know myself why I liked it, but I did. Just the whole unfolding drama thing, I suppose.

Taiga was a bitch, yeah, and Ryuuji made me facedesk quite a few times, but I felt sorry for the both of them at several points, and I was pretty satisfied when they ended up together. By far, my favorite character was Minori, though, who was oddly enough far more interesting than either of the main characters.

ManwiththePlan Since: Dec, 2009
#282: Jun 29th 2010 at 1:12:58 PM

^^ Kinda agree with both above posts. The series wasn't bad but it had it's problems, mainly from Taiga and Ryuji. They just weren't characters I wanted to focus on. I love Ami and Minori much more, (Ami being a Perverse Sexual Lust of mine and Minori being so cute and hilarious) and I think even Yuusaku was more likeable than the leads.

edited 29th Jun '10 1:14:20 PM by ManwiththePlan

Superior Since: Sep, 2009
#283: Jun 29th 2010 at 1:37:59 PM

^ And that's why I say that it's a good thing if the pairing is spelled out. If you don't like the main characters, (that is ok, can happen with any character type, regardless the story's quality,) you can choose not to watch the series, or at least watch while knowing that you won't love it anyways. If you watch it, hoping for a miracle, it's your own fault.

It's like watching the Return of the Jedi, and complaining that Vader was way too cool to die, and you expected the protagonists to die instead. The genre itself doesn't allow this particular twist, that doesn't mean that it must be boring, as Toradora has some fine twists as well.

^^ "For some reason, I really wanted to know what happened to the characters next"

This. Also, for some reason, it really just bugs me that even people who supported that pairing, were totally ok with The one year timeskip without them seeing each other, just saying "yay, at least they are together". No! One year is so annoyingly long! And anyways, what were the rest of the cast doing during that time? Just sitting there with a dumb look on their face for a year, the girls trying not to think too hard about how their rival is out of the picture, while Yuusaku and Ryuuji were daydreaming about their distant love interests? That must have been a weird year.

edited 29th Jun '10 1:38:34 PM by Superior

De gustibus non est disputandum.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#284: Jun 29th 2010 at 1:46:25 PM

Well, it helps that I don't buy the hookup in question in the first place. Taiga was believable enough. Ryuji was just sort of like 'Okay I love Taiga now instead. Let's elope!'

ManwiththePlan Since: Dec, 2009
#285: Jun 29th 2010 at 1:54:39 PM

^^ I don't have to like Taiga/Ryuji to watch it. Haven't you ever heard of Just Here for Godzilla? tongue

Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#286: Jun 29th 2010 at 1:56:48 PM

^^ I actually thought it kind of made sense.

Not sense as in, "This is a sensible decision" but given Ryuuji's character, and his history, it makes sense that he'd end up making the same mistake as his mother.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
OverMaster?! You Da Man, Dawg from Valencia, Venezuela Since: Mar, 2010
You Da Man, Dawg
#287: Jun 29th 2010 at 6:57:49 PM

But...that's percisely why I don't really like the series. If it's made so blatantly obvious from the beggining that the designated main pairing is going to get together, there's no real drama or suspense in watching it. Sure there's drama in how they'll get there, but the inevitable outcome's already been spoiled for us.

You have just descripted my problem with Ai Yori Aoshi. But really, I didn't think it was that bad here.

edited 29th Jun '10 6:58:32 PM by OverMaster?!

Grahf Since: Jan, 2001
#288: Jun 29th 2010 at 7:10:41 PM

I mean, just look at yourselves: The title practically translates as "Taiga x Ryuuji", the OP is full of them together, she is the First Girl, and you feel cheated, when they actually get together?

I haven't actually watched the show, but you have hit on the main reason people were displeased. Yes, it's a Rom Com, but people were hoping that this was something that might actually subvert first girl wins. And for a while, it looked like it was going to, especially since the premise was that the two of them would help get the other's crush to notice them.

But then none of that happened, it was First Girl Wins after all, and any potential for it to be different is lost. I'm not arguing that the pairing was obvious, but some people had hoped for something a little less clichéd, and were disappointed when it turned out to play it straight.

OverMaster?! You Da Man, Dawg from Valencia, Venezuela Since: Mar, 2010
You Da Man, Dawg
#289: Jun 29th 2010 at 7:27:51 PM

Speaking as someone who is currently writing a fanfiction series of his own using anime characters, I have found avoiding First Girl Wins is much more difficult than it seems at first sight.

Poke2201 Poke2201 from My Room Since: Jul, 2009
Poke2201
#290: Jun 29th 2010 at 10:32:50 PM

First Girl Wins tends to be the quickest and fastest way to end romantic plot/subplots. If we really wanted to subvert First Girl wins(and not make it blatantly obvious), we'd have to pretty much give almost every Love Interest a backstory, and add in some finite amount of Ship Tease, FOR ALL THE SHIPS, and then just slowly give the characters more screen time together.

edited 29th Jun '10 10:33:02 PM by Poke2201

"Love is like war: Easy to begin but hard to end." - Anonymous
Superior Since: Sep, 2009
#291: Jun 30th 2010 at 4:20:11 AM

So, why doesn't anyone complain that Clannad is "the same old shit", and too predictable, because we know that Nagisa will win?

For example I don't like her character type, so I avoided it for some time, and when I finally watched it, it was good, but as I expected, her presence brought it down from a 10/10 to a 9/10 for me. What I didn't do, is complaining that the series is "broken", and rant about how it "should be".

No matter how I look at it, the whole idea of a backdraft against a pairing could only come from people who are too emotionally attached to a series that wasn't made for them in the first place.

De gustibus non est disputandum.
Knighted Minimalist Since: Apr, 2010
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#293: Jun 30th 2010 at 9:15:32 AM

Superior: That's why I refuse to watch the Clannad anime. I hate Nagisa. In the VN even before you play her route it's blatantly obvious she's the main heroine, but you don't have to deal with her constantly.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#294: Jun 30th 2010 at 9:19:29 AM

Clannad is the same old shit. That should be pretty obvious to anyone who's seen it and isn't delusional. It's just a very well crafted piece of the same old shit that appeals strongly to the target audience.

KillerRabbit Just wondering from In the Ning Nang Nong Since: Jan, 2001
Just wondering
#295: Jun 30th 2010 at 11:06:50 AM

@Superior: Yeah, I pretty much agree on both points. Suspense is nice if you get it, but a show shouldn't need it to thrive, particularly a character driven show as romances tend to be.

And yes, everything in the last two episodes kinda bugged me. I kinda see where the whole elopement thing comes from, tying in to the theme of love against infatuation, but it felt completely out of the blue for both characters. That may be Values Dissonance on my part, as it certainly came across like that.

The time skip at the end is something I've noticed in several anime romances and V Ns, and it annoys the tits off me. The only reason to do it is to provide the impression of the couple being faithful without actually having to do any development of the relationship post first kiss.

@ Arilou: Its entirely possible that I'm reading from a skewed angle, but I always thought one of Ryuuji's motivating factors was an obsession with not making the same mistakes as his father. He sees both his mother and more of himself in Taiga than he'd care to admit, he is faithful beyond all reason to her to prove himself a better man, a better father figure than his own. Is a bit screwy as an moral? Yep. Does it create more pop-Freudian implications than you can shake a phallic stick at? Oh my. But I think it makes sense. Taiga is the more obviously damaged of the two, but I find Ryuuji neither bland nor entirely balanced.

They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams for an instant, then it's night once more
Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#296: Jun 30th 2010 at 1:35:44 PM

^ Oh yes. And the point is that he ends up making exactly the same decision (certainly a reckless one, but we kind of cut off before we can call it a "mistake") ANYWAY.

This is actually one of the things I think is really... Nice, about the show.

edited 30th Jun '10 1:36:08 PM by Arilou

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
Mapi "keionbu ni yokusou, nyan?" from Sakurakou Keionbu Since: Aug, 2011
"keionbu ni yokusou, nyan?"
#297: Jul 2nd 2010 at 4:47:28 AM

Clannad is partly the same shit. This is because "the same shit" rarely invokes They Do.

Show of hands: other than Arha and myself, who else has played the Clannad VN so I can think about your opinions and see if they're justified.

edited 2nd Jul '10 4:48:25 AM by Mapi

My FF.net account
Poke2201 Poke2201 from My Room Since: Jul, 2009
Poke2201
#298: Jul 13th 2010 at 12:17:36 AM

Itazura Na Kiss is also the same piece of shit by the terms here, but like Clannad it invokes They Do for half the damn series.

The Time Skip pissed the ever living pants off me. Sure ok, I can deal with the random Time Skip but seriously? NO WEDDING AFTER THEY PROPOSED? Now that it some messed up CRAP. Hell at least add in an OVA with the wedding so we can have something more than:

"Hey were together again, even though were engaged, we'll just end it at this point in time!"

Mind the rant, I dislike shows with horrible closure.

"Love is like war: Easy to begin but hard to end." - Anonymous
NG14916 Since: May, 2010
#299: Jul 31st 2010 at 6:47:27 PM

I watched around ten episodes of Clannad before I got bored. I tried to sympathize with the characters but I just felt empty when the sad scenes took place. There is nothing really original about the show and it doesn't deserve the praise that it gets.

Poke2201 Poke2201 from My Room Since: Jul, 2009
Poke2201
#300: Aug 1st 2010 at 1:40:23 PM

Hype Aversion? Its a good show, but its not the be all end all of romantic shows. Clannad was good, but I felt Itazura Na Kiss had more Emotional Torque when it came to the romance.

"Love is like war: Easy to begin but hard to end." - Anonymous

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