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Rename (cleaner definition; gathering name suggestions): Rid Me Of This Priest

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Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#26: Sep 8th 2010 at 1:01:07 PM

I will also ask those of you who know the quote to take a step back from History Fan Myopia, the same way Anime fans would be asked to step away from their knowledge of Anime.

I mentioned this in the previous thread, and even with the revision to the Trope Renaming Guidelines it remains, that it is a problem when a title relies on knowing a work (it says show specifically, but applies equally to movies, books, and, I believe, historical events that are not common knowledge).

As it notes there, The Corps Is Mother made perfect sense to Babylon Five fans, but was entirely opaque to anyone else. In this case, Rid Me Of This Priest means nothing to those who haven't studied, or simply haven't bothered to remember studying, a specific period of time, and in this thread those who do know the quote are citing problems with the specific phrasing.

Take a step back from the "This is history so it should stay," and ask yourselves if the title actually works from the mindset of someone who knows nothing about Henry II.

We can debate about what it should be renamed to later on, the important question right now is whether or not the trope works, and if it doesn't, it needs to be renamed. Be that to Rid Me Of This X, Someone Rid Me Of This Priest, That Wasnt An Order, or something else entirely, can be decided later.

edited 8th Sep '10 1:04:57 PM by Twilightdusk

VincentGaribaldi Since: Mar, 2010
#27: Sep 8th 2010 at 2:51:50 PM

Also, with regards to meddlesome, troublesome or whatever, you can find the quote in several versions, none of them any more official than the others. Will No One Rid Me Of This Troublesome Priest (or meddlesome) is better than the current name, but I still think it would be better to go with something more accessible.

Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#28: Sep 8th 2010 at 2:56:49 PM

If someone makes a trope page for meddlesome or otherwise annoying priests, I believe the chances of that and this being confused with each other is rather high. This is one of the reasons I believe this trope name should be changed.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
SilentReverence adopting kitteh from 3 tiles right 1 tile up Since: Jan, 2010
adopting kitteh
#29: Sep 8th 2010 at 3:10:14 PM

While I don't agree with the "the solution can be decided later" paradigm — enough problems has it brought to my country, and it relies on levels of trust towards the fora that I'm not comfortable with — I do agree that the current title is cumbersome. I insist however that it is most likely that only a small fix is needed instead of something like That Wasnt An Order (which would also be a ptitle).

I still think getting rid of the priest would be step one, be it with an X or rewording the object of the sentence.

The more complete form Will No One Rid Me Of This Troublesome Priest? (or X?) is a good, concise, clear, concrete title, but I think it is unwieldly long, unnecessarily hard to pothole, pointing to the historical context the wrong way (it still reads like it has to be an order), and a ptitle (which we shouldn't need to worry in 2010, but we do). If to get rid of three of those problems, at the expense of aggravating the 4th, maybe an impersonal form using would instead of will, and therefore being capable to drop the question mark, could be used.

Something like Would Rid Me Of This (without the X) — easy to pothole via "what if", which is kinda the sense of the trope anyway; potholeable from the left and the right side; not pointing to any insubstantial someones and thus not sounding like an order; less dependant on strict knowledge of the historical context; and not a ptitle. Far less clear than the form using will though, at least IMHO.

edited 8th Sep '10 3:12:05 PM by SilentReverence

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?
Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#30: Sep 8th 2010 at 3:52:47 PM

What I meant was, Entirely New Name vs. Minor Change To Old Name can be discussed later on if we can all agree that the name as-is doesn't work.

Those on the first side (such as myself) believe that the current name is needlessly opaque to those who don't happen to know the quote referenced, while some of those on the opposing side point out that the current phrasing of the name is somewhat inaccurate and somewhat misleading.

Both of these groups can at least agree that leaving the name as-is is worse than either of these two options can't we? I'd personally like a new name entirely, but I can see how replacing Priest with X and/or expanding it to a fuller version of the quote would both be improvements over the current name.

The important question at this stage is not "what should the name of this trope be?" but rather, "Is the current name of this trope good?"

If later on we reach a stalemate over what the new name should be, that usually leads to the trope not getting a new name, it's not like this crowner is the be all end all of if it gets renamed or not, if we can't get consensus later on what the name should be, chances are the issue will be dropped for another while.

edited 8th Sep '10 3:56:18 PM by Twilightdusk

Daremo Misanthrope Supreme from Parts Unknown Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
#31: Sep 8th 2010 at 4:03:20 PM

That's not true. History has shown, once a rename is decided upon, a rename will go through, even if all suggested names are crap. Renames have gone through even with every suggested name in a crowner in the negative(actually, if memory serves, in the case I'm thinking of, all names were negative, then someone came up with a late entry, people thought it was better than the rest, and it was quickly bulled through).

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
VincentGaribaldi Since: Mar, 2010
#32: Sep 8th 2010 at 4:16:15 PM

But since we all agree that the name should change, even if only somewhat, then why not? I could settle for Will No One Rid Me Of This Troublesome X, which would at least be more indicative than the current title, and closer to the historical quote. It might not be anyone's first choice, but I think most would agree it's better than the current name.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#33: Sep 8th 2010 at 5:17:14 PM

From the look of the crowner, it has yet to be decided if this trope is going to be renamed. It's currently not going to be. You need 2/3rds majority and you don't have that currently.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
GeneralGrant Since: Jun, 2010
#34: Sep 9th 2010 at 10:11:45 AM

I actually am quite familiar with the historical event, but I never would have known the meaning of the trope by the name, or that it was even a reference to Henry II. It sounds like a trope either about A) priests, B) ordering that someone be gone from the speaker's sight or C) ordering a murder and not by accident.

Changing "priest" to "X" would be an acceptable change to me, hopefully with a slight change of language, such as "will no one rid me of" instead of "rid me of"— it sounds less like a direct order and more like wishing out loud that gets misinterpreted. It should definitely be renamed, even if only to tweak the language a little.

Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#35: Sep 11th 2010 at 9:32:29 AM

Bumping this a bit. Can't think of anything to say I haven't already, the name is misleading and needs to be improved in some way. Even giving the quote more of its original context would be an improvement over the current title.

TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#36: Sep 11th 2010 at 11:32:34 AM

I actually never heard of this. Thought the trope was about a literal "someone get rid of this priest!" kind of thing. Needs a rename I think.

As for changing it to "Rid me of X": It STILL sounds like someone is giving an order to get rid of someone, there's no way of telling it's not meant literally. That's the trope, yes, but even if the trope is about a misunderstanding, you shouldn't have people misunderstand the title. And "Will no one rid me of X" sounds a lot like "Will no one rid me of this dragon?", whereupon some plucky kid accepts the quest and yaddayadda.

The quote is a pretty good quote, and should probably stay on the page. Needs a better title.

edited 11th Sep '10 11:36:58 AM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#37: Sep 11th 2010 at 12:52:30 PM

I agree with Daremo: if this is renamed, it will be renamed to something worse, something more opaque. Anyone can learn about Thomas Becket and the famous quote by reading English history, from TS Eliot's Murder in the Cathedral, or from the first series of Black Adder.

Any new name will be more obscure than that, I fear.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#38: Sep 11th 2010 at 1:14:43 PM

Right, because English history, T.S.Elliot, and a British comedy group are totally mainstream to Americans.

The three leading ideas so far for what a rename would be are a) a more complete version of the quote that creates better context, b) replacing Priest with X to make it less easily confused to be something about clergy, and c) a new title that would not rely on any sort of reference (such as the current redirect That Wasnt An Order.)

I don't think any of those would be "more obscure" than the current title.

edited 11th Sep '10 1:20:12 PM by Twilightdusk

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#39: Sep 11th 2010 at 2:06:34 PM

^ This site is used by people all over the world who read and write English, not just Americans.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#40: Sep 11th 2010 at 2:07:44 PM

But a large portion of them *are* Americans. Alienating a large portion of the audience so that you can pat yourself on the back for understanding a literary reference is generally not kosher.

Also, english-speakers in non-US non-UK countries suffer from the same downsides.

edited 11th Sep '10 2:08:14 PM by Yamikuronue

BTW, I'm a chick.
LouieW Loser from Babycowland Since: Aug, 2009
Loser
#41: Sep 11th 2010 at 2:39:20 PM

Given that the current trope does not have a huge amount of "wicks" at this point, I do think it is a candidate for a rename. I agree with General Grant on the second part of what that troper said. I think "will no one rid me of this X" works, but I think that if the word "priest" is kept here "will no one" needs to be added onto the name for get rid of some confusion.

Anyway, even if one thinks people should know the reference here, I think that reality here is that a lot of people do not know it. In my opinion, that makes the current name difficult for some people to grasp. That is just my opinion though, I am not totally sure the crowner speaks to that.

edited 11th Sep '10 2:40:34 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#42: Sep 11th 2010 at 3:31:26 PM

@ Rottweiler: Right, because English history, T.S.Elliot, and a British comedy group are totally mainstream to Americans. Filipinos, Venezuelans, Hungarians, and Indonesians...

edited 11th Sep '10 3:32:12 PM by Madrugada

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#43: Sep 11th 2010 at 3:57:36 PM

@Madrugada: My concern is that it will get renamed into opaque troper jargon, like "The Dragon" or "Launcher of a Thousand Ships".

A lot more English-speaking people know English history than know TV Tropes jargon, which is what I worry about it being renamed into.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#44: Sep 11th 2010 at 4:04:21 PM

Typically, when we rename tropes, we try to keep things as transparent as possible. Usually, it's because the original name is opaque, and changing from one opaque name to another isn't very productive.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
VincentGaribaldi Since: Mar, 2010
#45: Sep 11th 2010 at 4:33:00 PM

Even a lot of the people who know about Thomas a Becket are confused by this, or have never heard of this trope. So changing the name to be more reflective of the original story, which also makes it more clear (if only somewhat) to people who aren't familiar with it, seems obvious. I still wouldn't mind a completely different title, but it seems that won't go through.

Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#46: Sep 11th 2010 at 5:01:20 PM

It's been noted by some who do know the quote that this specific wording of it makes it confusing. "Will no one rid me of this priest?" has a much different implication than "Rid me of this priest." The first one seems like it at least could be a rhetorical question, but the later is hard to identify as anything other than a hard order. This trope is about the former, about something being misinterpreted as an order.

TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#47: Sep 11th 2010 at 5:20:40 PM

I Wasnt Serious? I Didnt Mean That? Neither of those are Troper Jargon and make more sense then the current title. Of course, both are ptitles, but they're just examples that there CAN be a title that doesn't require a background in English History to understand.

edited 11th Sep '10 5:21:14 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#48: Sep 11th 2010 at 7:40:34 PM

Well, for what it's worth, I'd never heard of the quote before coming to this page, and I had no idea what it was supposed to mean. My best guess was that it was a trope about someone just telling someone to get rid of someone bothering them. Y'know, like with a bouncer or something. I don't think I would have associated it at all with Poor Communication Kills. In fact, even if it were the full quote, I still wouldn't have made the association.

I'd say it's definitely meaningless to anyone unfamiliar with the story of whatsisname, Tom Beckett. Or at least, meaningless to me, with me being unfamiliar with said story. Even extending the trope name to the full "Will no one rid me of this priest?" I think it sounds more like someone just complaining about someone who's annoying them, a la "Yeesh, who invited that guy?"

edited 11th Sep '10 7:40:49 PM by troacctid

spiritsunami Since: Jan, 2001
#49: Sep 12th 2010 at 8:45:24 PM

I definitely remember posting in the original topic, but can't find it anywhere in there. I stand by my original position—it's non-intuitive and overly obscure. Rename all the way.

spiritsunami Since: Jan, 2001
#50: Sep 12th 2010 at 8:45:24 PM

I definitely remember posting in the original topic, but can't find it anywhere in there. I stand by my original position—it's non-intuitive and overly obscure. Rename all the way.

AlternativeTitles: RidMeOfThisPriesttake2
20th Apr '10 12:00:00 AM

Crown Description:

The Definition that the name needs to fit is as follows:

A person says something he does not mean literally; he does not mean for it to happen. Someone else hears the statement and interprets it as an order or request. The person who heard it acts on it, believing it to be the genuine desire of the speaker. This results in something the person who made the statement did not want or expect. Upon learning that the non-order was carried out, the person thought to have issued it is displeased.

  • The speaker does not
    • have to be alone when he makes the statement,
    • have to believe that no one heard him say it.
  • His awareness of or lack of awareness of the person who heard him is irrelevant.
  • The result does not have to be death or even serious harm.
  • The relationship between the person speaking and the person acting is irrelevant.
  • The statement does not have to be phrased as a rhetorical question.
  • The statement does not have to be made in anger or frustration.

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