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TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#676: Feb 15th 2023 at 10:32:32 AM

On one hand is a good thing that JMS has the rights for his creation, on the other ST and SW didn't really diversify until their creators were not around (whether because the rights were sold or the person died), I mean, both have now several TV shows, animated shows, video games etc. Although how much this is good is kind of debatable, and also might not be related to the creator being around or not.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#677: Feb 15th 2023 at 10:36:14 AM

[up] Both Star Wars and Star Trek had masses amount of licensed material before Lucas and Roddenbery were out of the picture.

eta: interesting contrast that those two are considered better when they had plenty of other people contributing to their works while JMS is at his best doing it all himself. Not that DC Fontana, Peter David or Neil Gaiman's episodes are considered bad exactly.

Edited by dcutter2 on Feb 15th 2023 at 6:43:52 PM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#678: Feb 15th 2023 at 10:50:48 AM

It's worth noting that Roddenberry didn't really have any sort of overarching narrative in mind. And he didn't write much of the original show at all.

JMS doing better with Babylon 5 can be, in large part, credited to how he had a good story in mind from the beginning.

and regardless of what Lucas says, he very obviously didn't have Star Wars all planned out ahead of time

TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#679: Feb 15th 2023 at 12:15:52 PM

[up][up]No matter how popular comics and books can be, they would never reach the same amount of exposure as movies and TV shows, specially internationally as many of them are harder to find or don't get translated.

Books might reach similar levels but normally just international best sellers or big literature classics which AFAIK wasn't the case of any SW novels.

So yes, whether we like it or not, is not until a franchise start expanding making shows (both live action and animated) and theatrical movies that starts really entering the mainstream. That's why most people have at least a minor knowledge of who Spock is or who Chewbacca is even if they had never seen ST or SW, while showing them G'Kar has not the same effect.

[up]That's true, however I do wonder if the franchise could have benefit from someone else at the helm with some side projects, in a similar way how Gendy Tartakovsky or Jon Favreau did with SW or how DS 9 is considered by many to not be "true" to Gene's vision and yet is considered one of the best ST shows.

Of course we also have Picard season 2 and The Rise of Skywalker so... maybe is for the best it did not happened...

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#680: Feb 15th 2023 at 2:41:59 PM

[up] Who was talking about Comics and Books? What are you talking about, I seem to be misunderstanding?

Star Wars and Trek both had multiple movies, tv-shows etc under their original creators.

Hell so did B5. Two t-series and multiple movies. (albeit only tv ones)

Edited by dcutter2 on Feb 15th 2023 at 10:59:32 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#681: Feb 15th 2023 at 2:57:30 PM

I think Byron's plot suffered tremendously because of Claudia Christian's absence because she was established as a P1 Telepath and someone with significant hatred of Psi-Core that would have given more room to bring the plot into it. Part of it is also a Good Versus Good situation which is rare. Byron wants to save all the telepaths but he assumes (not without reason) that they're at the absolute bottom of Sheridan's priority list.

When, in fact, Psi-Core was a major part of the Earth's Nazi regime.

But what Byron accomplishes is alienating everyone who actually IS sympathetic and making a bunch of enemies where he doesn't because he assumes everyone will fold. The irony because he's a telepath who is a Horrible Judge of Character.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 15th 2023 at 2:58:18 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#682: Feb 15th 2023 at 3:31:42 PM

[up][up]Star Wars had three movies and thirty years later had another three movies, no TV shows (unless you count Droids and Ewoks) and a Holiday Special.

Star Trek had two TV shows, 1 animated show, and six movies before Gene Roddenberry's dead.

After Roddenberry's dead ST had a total of seven shows and 3 animated shows, and a total of 13 movies, whilst after Lucas' sell to Disney SW got 15 movies, 7 animated shows, 11 TV shows and not counting in either case shorts, Lego specials and videogames.

Thus, sorry but as I mentioned before after the creators dead or selling was when these two franchises really took off. They did have movies in one case and movies and TV shows in another but they were hardly at the same level of menu as they are now after the creator was out of the picture.

Edited by TVGuy on Feb 15th 2023 at 3:33:03 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#683: Feb 15th 2023 at 3:38:27 PM

Are you seriously trying to say Star Wars didn't make it big until Disney bought it? Seriously?!

And then in trying to do so you're discounting a shitton of stuff to so. All lucasarts games and most of TCW to boot.

As to Star Trek three series and movies isn't enough? There's only more after Roddenbury's dead because he's been dead for quite a while now.

And you are double counting the stuff the creators did with the stuff from later. All you are proving is franchises get bigger with age.

Edited by dcutter2 on Feb 15th 2023 at 11:41:01 AM

TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#684: Feb 15th 2023 at 3:45:17 PM

Well I was referring to menu, to options, not popularity. People have much more options on both shows now than before considering all the media they both produce, you can chose over dozens and dozens of different media (animation, movies, streaming) not like before that you could watch the six movies and… that was pretty much it.

However now that you mention it... kind of yes too. I don't remember SW being as popular back then. Yes it was a box office and merchandise heavy weight but it was still kind of niche comparing to now.

And ST more so, it was even mock publicly as something only nerds saw. It was mocked in The Simpsons, Saturday Night Live, Frasier and many other shows, it was hardly seen a something "cool" people watches as is now. I don't believe they were truly "mainstream" back them as of now, but that could be subjetive.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#685: Feb 15th 2023 at 4:04:16 PM

[up]I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Star Trek had several successful films before Rodenberry passed away and the OT has always been a Sacred Cow. Simpsons may have mocked them, but they mock everything under the sun. How many shows or media something has is not always a fair indicator of success.

TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#686: Feb 15th 2023 at 4:09:17 PM

Well, as I said might be subjective but I still have that perception, I don't feel neither was as mainstream as they're today.

But that's going off-topic. To get the topic back on track what is undeniable is that B5 is not. B5 is an obscure show with a cult following. I really would love to see animated shows, spin-offs, prequels, theatrical movies.

In a way B5 seems to be a lot like ST before TNG and I would like to see it spread as much as ST has afterwards.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#687: Feb 15th 2023 at 4:20:30 PM

[up]It's important to remember that the mass-media proliferation we see today is relatively recent in Western media. Japan did it to some extent with Gundam or Pokemon and many others, but having a universe of works started with Marvel. It's only with its success that everyone else did the same thing. Having a few popular movies or shows was considered mainstream success before that blew up.

Edited by kkhohoho on Feb 15th 2023 at 6:21:10 AM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#688: Feb 15th 2023 at 5:40:29 PM

Remember, Next Generation was mainstream. It was the number one show in syndication for years.

TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#689: Feb 15th 2023 at 6:49:02 PM

[up][up]Hmmm I dunno. Apart from the popularization of the Shared Universe gimmick I don't feel the social stigma of liking those works exists anymore, or not at the same level.

Edited by TVGuy on Feb 15th 2023 at 6:49:21 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#690: Feb 15th 2023 at 7:31:11 PM

[up]There wasn't a social stigma. Maybe that's what Simpsons and the rest would lead you to believe, but most people loved Star Trek and Star Wars and weren't ashamed of it.

Edited by kkhohoho on Feb 15th 2023 at 10:38:03 AM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#691: Feb 15th 2023 at 7:43:48 PM

Star Wars Episode IV was nominated for a best picture Oscar. It was a gigantic smash hit. Everyone saw it. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan is considered to be a full stop classic movie, no questions asked. It was also a genuine hit. My grandparents fucking love Star Trek IV and they hate science fiction.

People made jokes about them because they were popular. Because they knew that everyone would understand the jokes. Sure, sometimes the Simpsons would joke about something really obscure, but that generally doesn't get many laughs. Making jokes about something everyone recognizes does.

And like I said, TNG was the number one show in syndication for a few years and DS 9 and Voyager both got pretty good numbers too. They were not cheap to make and they both got seven years, that's a pretty good sign people liked them.

Babylon 5 approached things from a different angle, and JMS did try to make an expanded universe, but TNT sabotaged Crusade, Legend of the Rangers didn't go anywhere (...probably a good move, that is one humiliating spaceship battle control system) and the Lost Tales...WB refused to give it a reasonable budget. The CW reboot is still being worked on and apparently JMS is going to announce...something this summer but no one knows what. But yeah, the lack of an expansive franchise isn't at all JMS's fault.

Edited by Zendervai on Feb 15th 2023 at 10:44:15 AM

TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#692: Feb 15th 2023 at 10:18:07 PM

I've learn there's no point in being argumentative in the TV Tropes forums. If watching sci-fi shows apparently was cool, maybe I was the only one bullied for doing so, maybe indeed that Saturday Night Live sketch when William Sharnet humilliates the Trekkers because they're grown men who can't have dates has nothing to do it was always cool to be a sci-fi geek and kids who were into sci-fi stuff were very popular. Maybe indeed was only me and was a local thing.

So I totally concede defeat, they were always popular, mainstreams and their fans were always considered cool. I'm not being sarcastic, I really think that maybe I'm on the wrong here, it might have been my personal experience that was bad for being a fan of them or maybe was something that happened in my country and not in the US or others.

And probably I'm wrong in the other too. SW and ST were always massively popular phenomenons with lots of TV shows, animated series and movies watched by mainstream audiences and not niches during their creators' handling of them and later when the creator wasn't around it made no real difference.

But the question stands. If sci-fi was always mainstream and having the creator involve makes no difference, B5 still never diversify. Never did an animated show nor a theatrical movie. If being a niche or having the creator with a strong handling is not the reason I wonder what is.

Edited by TVGuy on Feb 15th 2023 at 10:20:07 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#693: Feb 15th 2023 at 10:38:02 PM

In terms of social stigma, there was a big difference between "enjoys the Star Wars movies" and "attends Star Wars conventions and reads up on Expanded Universe lore". One was mainstream & popular, the other very much the opposite.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#694: Feb 16th 2023 at 4:01:46 AM

Yeah. Going “oh yeah, I watch Star Trek sometimes” or “I went to go see the new Star Wars movie” wasn’t going to get much of a reaction, generally. Making it obvious you were a big fan might get you bullied by shallow idiots.

And I explained what happened with Babylon 5. TNT sabotaged the spinoff show, the pilot for the other spinoff show didn’t catch on and the Lost Tales, Warner Bros refused to up the budget for any future entries despite it selling well. Combine that with some actor deaths severely reducing the number of available story options and it’s pretty obvious why JMS didn’t want to continue it.

Star Wars is only getting a billion spinoffs because Disney accidentally managed to engineer a situation where the TV shows get more interest than the movies and Star Trek has five shows running right now, but in the 90s, they only ever had two at the same time. (Voyager didn’t start until TNG ended).

Uh, I also want to note that going for an animated series is actually kind of unusual and if B5 had gotten one when the iron was hot…the closest equivalent would have been Stargate Infinity, which would have absolutely made any potential producers extremely leery. Combine that with the extremely heavy content restrictions that were the norm until the early 2010s and it’s a little hard to imagine that JMS would have ever managed anything anywhere near Prodigy. Especially since JMS doesn’t seem to have great memories of working on animation due to how controlling Content and Standards departments tend to be.

Edited by Zendervai on Feb 16th 2023 at 7:04:06 AM

AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#695: Feb 16th 2023 at 4:19:17 AM

Anyways, let's dial it back in on Babylon 5.

An interesting thought occurred to me while listening to a couple of podcasts where new fans watch B5 without knowing where the show is going. There are more than a few cases of our heroes abusing their authority to get their way, and I'm wondering if that could be taken as some commentary on how folks working within an authoritarian regime might find it easy to benefit from the privilege that regime grants them (such as military officers in EarthForce) without necessarily being evil or doing any harm with that power.

This might be part of how they found themselves in their situation of facing a violently authoritarian regime in the later seasons of the show, because it was too easy for that regime to grow in power without many folks realizing anything was wrong. It didn't seem so bad to them until they started having to deal with the fallout from it. Even then, we see other EarthForce officers being very hesitant to help them even when it does come down to an attempt to resist a government that orders airstrikes on its own populations.

Edited by AFP on Feb 16th 2023 at 4:19:34 AM

merklyn Since: Feb, 2011
#696: Feb 19th 2023 at 6:53:16 AM

It can be a commentary.

But it's also just how you write a TV show in a military setting, you need your characters to do things so they bend or break rules to save the day, I can't think of a series where characters were always by the book.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#697: Feb 19th 2023 at 11:17:21 AM

Most obvious example is when Sheridan interrogates Mr. Morden over what happened to the Icarus:

Earth Central thinks you're dead. Until I send them my report, you are still dead. That means you've got no rights, no legal recourse. No one to miss you if you ... don't turn up.

P.S. I wonder if it's just in deference to Sheridan's feelings that no one ever brings up that Anna Sheridan should have really known better than to get on a spaceship called the Icarus.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#698: Feb 19th 2023 at 11:30:23 AM

[up] By that logic we should blame whoever named the damn thing Icarus in the first place.

The good thing about that episode is that Sheridan absolutely gets called on going against regs and that that's a very bad thing and iirc he (eventually) backs down.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#699: Feb 19th 2023 at 11:50:08 AM

Of course, this is the same setting where Earth's government started naming departments after stuff from Nineteen Eighty-Four, and apparently no one took that as a worrying sign.

Edited by RavenWilder on Feb 19th 2023 at 11:51:05 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#700: Feb 19th 2023 at 1:13:20 PM

F Iction does that all the time. No one in fiction has ever read another book or watched another movie unless explicitly specified, and will be completely genre blind unless the writer decides otherwise. Quite often they've never read a history book either...

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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