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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#38651: Feb 19th 2019 at 6:20:50 PM

I'm going to point out that downplaying the Legion's evil while being more critical of House simply because the former is "cooler" isn't that great either. There's just no way to justify saying that both are comparable in how evil they are — they aren't.

If you like the Legion more than House because you like the Legion's aesthetics, just be honest about it.

Edited by M84 on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:23:54 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#38652: Feb 19th 2019 at 6:22:56 PM

Nothing is cooler than football gear

Oh really when?
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#38653: Feb 19th 2019 at 6:24:00 PM

As I've grown older I've become increasingly wary of the whole "Evil Is Cool" thing anyway. It's based on something that real life criminals and dictators and cult leaders and such have exploited to gain power.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38654: Feb 19th 2019 at 6:56:48 PM

[up][up] It's more the music and voice-acting like I said.

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#38655: Feb 19th 2019 at 8:36:25 PM

Caesar does have a cool voice actor. I saw him on a couple shows and he can pull off smarmy superiority well.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#38656: Feb 19th 2019 at 9:29:25 PM

You know, the whole "Legion = Rome" thing never made much sense to me because apart from their (kinda shitty) cosplay and naming conventions they aren't.

The Legion is much closer to the stereotypical "barbarians at the gate" than Rome - they're a horde of brutal raiders only united by a strong leader (a chieftain, if you will) - heck, they're even made up of tribes.

Another thing that differs is their approach to culture - while Rome pursued a policy of Romanisation, it was usually through convincing people that being Roman was actually pretty neat - instead of outright stamping out different cultures, they syncretised to make integration of new peoples into the empire easier - the only exception were Jews and Christians, as their belief system directly clashed with Rome's policy of elevating former leaders to divinity.

Another thing is their glorification of low-tech combat, with most of the Legion being stuck with melee weapons and throwables with the justification that guns are for cowards. Rome wouldn't do that - you know what a faction led by somebody who actually understood what Rome was about would do? Adopt every bit of technology that could give them an edge.

One of the Roman soldier's best known weapons was adopted from Spain; they reverse-engineered Carthaginian ships to build a navy. Heck, even some of their gods were adopted from outside (for example, a Gallic deity became the patron of mounted soldiers, originally introduced to them by Gallic auxiliaries). Especially when it came to military innovation, Rome was on top of the game.

And then there's the matter of Rome itself - Caesar claims he has to conquer New Vegas to give his empire its "Rome". Rome wasn't conquered by the early Romans, it was built - Rome in general built a lot of things. Meanwhile the Legion doesn't build, relying purely on stealing from their betters.

It's pretty evident in the game that Caesar is an utter hypocrite, but apparently he's also an idiot who can't read - whatever book about Rome he found and read, apparently he didn't read it properly because I couldn't imagine any Rome-related book conveying such an utterly twisted image of what Rome was.

This is probably one of the main reasons (apart from the obvious) why I loathe Caesar's Legion - they're a bunch of raiders cosplaying as Romans led by Fallout's Carl Benjamin. And this is why even if they won, there's no feasible way for them to survive past Caesar's death without major and swift reforms.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Feb 19th 2019 at 6:35:47 PM

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#38657: Feb 19th 2019 at 9:39:39 PM

@Drunken Nordman: To be fair, there are elements of Rome in the Legion that clearly show that Caesar (and Obsidian) did their homework. A good example being the way they pronounce Latin words.

Also, Caesar points out much of what you say. He outright declares that he feels more like a Gaul than a Roman (which is why he wants to conquer Vegas, actually). This doesn't make him right, but at least it shows he did his homework.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38658: Feb 19th 2019 at 9:47:26 PM

Wasn't that beating soldiers to death a Roman thing?

And crucifying people.

And hey, from all I know, Ed's Praetorian Guard is a lot better than he actual Roman one which either left their emperor to die or just killed him themselves.

You gotta figure whatever books the Followers have must be pretty eclectic and maybe even incomplete. For all we know Caesar had one book on Rome with half the pages burned away.

I mostly view it as symbolism. Everyone is clinging to the old world in their own way. They see the keys to the future in the past. It's just they all have romanticized and incorrect ideas on the past.

Edited by Nikkolas on Feb 19th 2019 at 9:49:57 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#38659: Feb 19th 2019 at 9:48:33 PM

[up][up],[up]

That's my point, though: Any similarities to Rome are superficial at best.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Feb 19th 2019 at 6:49:03 PM

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#38660: Feb 19th 2019 at 9:49:19 PM

One of the points of Lonesome Road was that the factions are misappropriating history and its symbols. The Legion are no exception to this.

Sometimes it's relatively harmless and even benign, like with the Kings. Other times, it's like the Legion.

Edited by M84 on Feb 20th 2019 at 1:50:55 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
FergardStratoavis Bnnuy from Ye Olde Worlde (Less Newbie) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
Bnnuy
#38661: Feb 20th 2019 at 10:59:36 AM

History knows a number of conquerors whose lands collapsed with their death, and that's the closest a comparison Caesar will get. People like Attila the Hun, Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan are closer to him than any Roman emperor of old.

Unlike Alexander or Genghis, I don't see any reliable seconds that could at the very least govern the fractured lands and, given enough time, make something out of them. Lanius holds enough sway for a large raider group - not for something supposed to be the NCR's rival. Capabilities of Vulpes and Lucius are unknown. The Legion will vanish overnight once its god-king passes away in his sleep.

Can't be 5'2 if everyone thinks you're over six feet tall-
JerekLaz Since: Jun, 2014
#38662: Feb 20th 2019 at 3:46:13 PM

Also it's fairly clear Edward Sallow has his own "views" and is just using the Roman imagery. He is a CLEAR hypocrite - a wannabe intellectual. Much like the fascists appropriated Norse myth to suit their agenda, he's reinvented Rome but thrown out the bits he "thinks" led to the fall of Rome.

He's adopted the expansionist elements, the pomp, the discipline, but thinks to enforce that you throw out the rest. Now, this could be down to how Fallout's version of America interprets Rome (The country being a fairly autocratic / fascist state itself) AND coupled with the quality of the books Sallow may have found.

Look at Fallout 3's museum to see how badly even their recent history is reinterpreted in the Carrier. Could be something similar here.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#38663: Feb 20th 2019 at 3:59:36 PM

Fascist states tend to be worse about recent history, actually. More people care about and it's more immediately relevant, so it's more important to immediately put your own spin on it so that everyone, present and future, believes what you want them to believe. It's only later, when historians have a more distanced view of the matter and lots of data to comb through, that they're able to produce a more neutral report.

I could totally see Fallout America rewriting Roman history to fit their ideology a bit, though. Seems like the sort of useless propaganda that incompetent fascists trying to look useful to their evil bosses would focus on. I can't remember, do we know if they did book burnings? Because that's kinda the same vein.

Edited by Discar on Feb 20th 2019 at 4:01:26 AM

EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#38664: Feb 20th 2019 at 4:04:20 PM

They didn't burn books, they rewrote it to remove "seditious" thought.

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#38665: Feb 20th 2019 at 5:29:25 PM

Hey, at least Genghis Khan's empire managed to survive one succession. Puts it ahead of Alexander and the Legion.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#38666: Feb 20th 2019 at 5:49:43 PM

What I was getting at with Caesar is that he actually probably does have a good understanding of Rome and is well aware of the differences between The Legion and Rome. These differences aren't caused by him being ignorant about Roman history and are better explained by a combination of him being incapable of perfectly emulating Rome and outright choosing not to sometimes.

In other words, Caesar is actually fairly smart, he's just evil. Though to be fair I am slightly baffled by some of his decisions-for example, his misogyny. Does he ever argue why mistreating women like that is a good idea for his society?

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38667: Feb 20th 2019 at 5:57:51 PM

It's not a good idea for a society, it's a necessity for his army. He has no problems with women, they're just more useful to him as ways to replenish his never-ending need for warm bodies. The Legion is a military force and nothing more. Women civilians in Legion territory aren't mistreated so far as I'm aware.

It was one way it's easier to RP a female Courier working for the Legion. Legion grunts hate women but Legion high command from Caesar to Vulpes to Lucius have no problem with you. It's actually pretty realistic in a way. Misogyny in ideologies often starts at least vaguely inncent like in Confucianism but once it becomes institutionalized, the inevitability of in group vs. out group makes things worse and worse and worse. Caesar might have no particular issues with women but his men will be raised to see women in a certain way and thus they have significantly more hatred for them than Caesar actually does. It's the great flaw in segregationist policies of any sort. Even if you somehow had good intentions in starting them, they invariably spiral into something far uglier as time goes by. All people will see is "you are not like us" and become to think of the Other as lesser.

Edited by Nikkolas on Feb 20th 2019 at 6:07:50 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#38668: Feb 20th 2019 at 6:03:42 PM

Note that even a Female Courier aligned with the Legion is banned from fighting in their arena.

The Legion's treatment of women is atrocious. While everyone in the Legion is essentially a slave to Caesar, the women have insult added to injury by being outright considered sub-human. In the Legion, men are slaves and women are livestock.

Siri, a female Legion slave, has one of the most chilling lines in the entire Fallout series.

"We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually."

It's that "usually" bit that really creeps me out, given the implications.

A Courier in general has to be a pretty callous asshole to side with the Legion. A female one would likely have to have elements of Female Misogynist too along the lines of Phyllis Schafly.

Edited by M84 on Feb 20th 2019 at 10:12:49 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
JerekLaz Since: Jun, 2014
#38669: Feb 21st 2019 at 3:47:25 AM

Look at the slaves in the Legion camp in VATS as well - all of them have 0 health in their legs. They're crippled.

And most commentary about the Legion territories implies that, whilst peaceful, it isn't NICE. The only women seemingly left alone are the Religious caste - who are doing a weird version of Mars worship.

It's mentioned that women in their pacified territories have VERY strict roles, like the men (Men being essentially merchants or fighters) - women are essentially caretakers, midwives, breeders. The "Priestesses" raise the children.

This is Sallow trying to "maximise" the utility of the "strengths" of the sexes. This comes from Joshua Sawyer from a Formspring feedback session in 2011.

Basically, it ties in with Caesars sociopathic attitude to his Legion. He sees people as tools or toys. So, the freedom to choose for women is not there; but it's not there for men either. But the men are lauded and see themselves as superior because they DO have growth - they can promote and succeed in the Legion AND they have more authority.

Also, note how they are given free reign on the front line - they're slave soldiers, but they can rape and pillage for the most part, without TOO much consequence.

Post New Vegas, I can see the Courier being "memorialised" in some way by the Legion... but the Courier herself would probably find herself... relegated to a less threatening role, or sequestered away. A hero of myth is far more useful than a living contradiction of your values.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38670: Feb 21st 2019 at 3:59:06 AM

I was gonna ask doesn't an ending slide say Caesar fears an Evil Karam Courier but I think that was House.

Anyway, Caesar politely insisting the Courier, male or female, just relax and live a life of luxury somewhere just seem a prudent move. Forget high-minded ideological conflicts, the Courier as a living symbol is a threat more than an asset by that point. I don't like fanon bullshit that tries to undermine the spirit of the game so I don't think Caesar just has the Courier whacked. But based on the game and character observations, it's a safe enough guess that Caesar would prefer if the Courier just retired and let him do everything. He's got Lanius if he needs somebody to hit shit real hard and he has Vulpes if he needs something more sophisticated done. The Courier can just chill.

Edited by Nikkolas on Feb 21st 2019 at 4:02:04 AM

JerekLaz Since: Jun, 2014
#38671: Feb 21st 2019 at 4:06:39 AM

[up] Yeah, the slides are pretty good at laying it out - they imply the Courier is left alone (They get a coin minted after them!) but Caesar's a pragmatist. But he does seem to only overtly punish his followers if they FAIL.

So yeah, I can imagine him sending the courier off to a ranch FAR AWAY from Vegas and letting them have a vineyard...

It's House who is scared - basically with you as a Vader to his less effective Palpatine. House feels fond pride towards the Courier if they're good aligned. It's Cass who finds the whole arrangement... weird.

I do hope Bethesda let Obsidian have another crack; but it looks like the Outer Worlds is their "version".

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#38672: Feb 21st 2019 at 4:15:27 AM

A Good NCR Courier meanwhile gets...a medal. Okay, it's the highest civilian decoration the NCR offers, but still.

If we're judging things solely on the material rewards offered, I'd definitely go with House. Give me a luxury condo over a medal or a coin any day.

Edited by M84 on Feb 21st 2019 at 8:17:34 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
JerekLaz Since: Jun, 2014
#38673: Feb 21st 2019 at 4:22:16 AM

Yeah, you get to be The Dragon for House. In a way you just get a bit of a nervous pat on the head from the other two factions. And then shuffled off quietly as an embarrassment - as only YOU were able to change things.

Hell, it'd probably be damn difficult for either faction to remove you without resorting to Zapp Brannigan levels of tactics. At that stage you're some sort of cybernetically enhanced, Duster wearing, Material sniper wielding death god. With a veritable army of One-Man Army 's in your employ.

Go with House and you can add an ACTUAL Army of Securitrons to your arsenal. From a personal interest point of view, House works. If you don't want to be "the man in charge" and are happy being the loyal second.

Lavaeolus Since: Jan, 2015
#38674: Feb 21st 2019 at 4:28:02 AM

They crash him, and his body may burn. They smash him — but they know he'll return, because of a reload.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#38675: Feb 21st 2019 at 4:30:31 AM

[up]You shoot them and leave them in a ditch...well, Benny can attest to how well that worked out. Oh wait, he can't because he's super dead.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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