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Rename: Dancing Bear

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artman40 Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Nov 21st 2010 at 9:58:33 AM

Seems that Dancing Bear is not about dancing bears at all. It also has very few links redirecting to that article.

suedenim Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl from Jet Dream HQ Since: Oct, 2009
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
#2: Nov 21st 2010 at 10:04:12 AM

The first sentence of the description paraphrases a famous quote which I can't find....

AHA! Here's the original quote, which I couldn't find because it doesn't actually discuss a bear. Somehow "a dog’s walking on his hind legs" mutated into "a dancing bear" at some point.

Jet-a-Reeno!
mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#3: Nov 21st 2010 at 10:15:37 AM

[up] It was originally quite a sexist quote, IIRC, so I can sorta understand removing any reference to it.

SilentReverence adopting kitteh from 3 tiles right 1 tile up Since: Jan, 2010
adopting kitteh
#4: Nov 21st 2010 at 10:27:35 AM

Between the strange and altered quote as a name and the fact that whoever catches it is probably going to denote it is/was sexist and all, I think this should be renamed. I've heard the metaphore of dancing pigs in my field of sutdy, although I'm not sure if it is related to bipedal dogs at all.

Talking of wich... isn't this I Watch It For The Economics?

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?
mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#5: Nov 21st 2010 at 10:31:09 AM

[up] Ahh, I think it's different myself.

I Read It for the Articles = "I watch Axe Cop ... because it shows that great voice acting and art can redeem even a story written by a five-year old."

Dancing Bear = "I watch Axe Cop ... because it was written by a five-year old."

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Nov 21st 2010 at 12:30:40 PM

Johnson was probably paraphrasing with the quote. I've found numerous references to a Russian proverb "The marvel is not that the bear dances well, but that the bear dances at all." Google hits for "that the bear dances" (21,100) are slightly more numerous that those for "walking on his hind legs. It is not done well" (20,300)

But beyond the sexism of the Johnson quotation (which is pretty much irrelevant, since the name references the "dancing bear" version, not the "walking dog" one) I see no reason to change the name.

18 wicks and 44 inbounds; not great, but not sickly. But there's no way to tell how old the page is, either, since there's no YKTTW linked and the edit history was truncated in August.

edited 21st Nov '10 12:35:46 PM by Madrugada

mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#7: Nov 21st 2010 at 12:35:50 PM

[up] I wasn't suggesting a rename based on sexism. EDIT: Or, to clarify, at all.

I was saying it was understandable why someone had moved away from the original quote, I assumed it's because they thought it had sexist connotations.

I can't imagine another reason for the difference between trope name and Trope Namer. Well that's interesting. So it's a Russian proverb. Cool.

edited 21st Nov '10 12:48:35 PM by mmysqueeant

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#8: Nov 21st 2010 at 12:38:49 PM

What about actual dancing bears? They have the right balance of common and unusual to be perfectly tropable. Where should we put them?

edited 21st Nov '10 12:39:48 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#9: Nov 21st 2010 at 12:47:38 PM

Are the wicks used correctly?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
artman40 Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Nov 21st 2010 at 12:55:25 PM

Dancing Bear, I think is about a ridiculously specialized premise.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#11: Nov 21st 2010 at 2:10:15 PM

But gimmick-driven audience interest is a very real thing. That's what this is: the work is promoted with a gimmick; the work may be bad, good, or anywhere in between, but it's the gimmick that brings in the audience.

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#12: Nov 21st 2010 at 2:12:24 PM

Then perhaps we could tweak it to Watch It For The Dancing Bear?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#13: Nov 21st 2010 at 2:20:35 PM

[up] "Dancing bear" already implies that. If the name gets SPOONified (nooooooooo...!) it should probably lose any reference to dancing bears.

Added redirect Gimmick Attracts an Audience. Good enough?

edited 21st Nov '10 2:25:06 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#14: Nov 21st 2010 at 2:27:39 PM

No, it does not already imply that, especially since it's an idiom from a foreign language. That's like shortening Pimped-Out Dress to "Dress", and claiming it already implies the "Pimped Out" part.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#15: Nov 21st 2010 at 2:32:49 PM

[up] Uh, no, it's like saying "pimped out dress" doesn't mean the dress employs prostitutes, and Elaborate Sparkly Pimped Out Dress is unnecessarily literal and doesn't make anything more clear. Whatever, tho.

If you understand that the phrase "dancing bear" alludes to a proverb, then it already implies "watch it for the dancing bear". If you don't understand the phrase, adding "watch it for the..." doesn't make as much sense as just changing it completely.

Also, the idiom started in another language. That doesn't mean it's stuck there. "Fortune favors the bold" was originally rendered in Latin.

edited 21st Nov '10 2:43:02 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#16: Nov 21st 2010 at 3:01:47 PM

Your counterargument assumes the words "watch it for the" are not related to the trope, but they are, as Watch It for the Meme shows.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#17: Nov 21st 2010 at 6:23:46 PM

Stop, back up, re-examine what you're saying.

Totally not talking about the "watch it for the..." part alone, talking specifically about attaching that to "...dancing bear".

"Dancing bear" already implies "watch it for the...". If you think the name should be boring and obvious instead  *

, okay I guess, but it doesn't make sense to leave the "dancing bear" bit in.

"Dancing Bear" vs "Watch It For The Dancing Bear" vs "Watch It For The Gimmick"

(first or last, but the middle one is dumb)

edited 21st Nov '10 6:25:42 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#18: Nov 21st 2010 at 6:27:19 PM

No, it does not imply it already. The words clearly don't have anything like it. Could you look at the name apart from the idiom for a moment? That's what I'm getting at. And the term is not adopted into English yet, so that argument isn't a valid response either.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#19: Nov 21st 2010 at 6:30:37 PM

No, it does not imply it already.

YES IT DOES.

"Dancing bear" has no other meaning on its own. Unless you mean really literally the words "dancing" and "bear" each have a meaning in English apart from any allegorical reference. If you don't know the "special" meaning of "dancing bear" then it is dumb to modify the phrase instead of changing it to something else that doesn't reference any proverb at all.

You're saying it would be better to change "A Rolling Stone Gathers No Moss" to "A Rolling Stone Does Not Stagnate Or Accumulate Stressful Responsibilities" instead of something more obvious that doesn't involve mentioning stones.

edited 21st Nov '10 6:37:17 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#20: Nov 21st 2010 at 7:01:43 PM

Meaning is not the same as implication.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
GeneralGrant Since: Jun, 2010
#21: Nov 21st 2010 at 8:48:15 PM

It does not impy "watch it for the" at all; before clicking I thought this trope had something to do either 1. with bars/inns, as I thought of The Prancing Pony from The Lord Of The Rings, or 2. an animal performance, such as a bear trained to dance, or maybe bear fighting. I see no need to reference a proverb if it will make the title confusing or not as clear as it could be, it's not even clever. I personally have never even heard of a proverb or saying that has anything to do with a "dancing bear" before, I wonder how many other readers will have never heard of it either.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#22: Nov 21st 2010 at 8:51:47 PM

[up] That's fine, I am just saying "watch it for the gimmick" is better than "watch it for the dancing bear", that is a weird compromise, sometimes a compromise is a bad idea. But hey, maybe "watch it for the dancing bear" is a good idea. I think it's not. /shrug

edited 21st Nov '10 9:09:00 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
DRCEQ Since: Oct, 2009
#23: Nov 21st 2010 at 9:09:58 PM

I don't know if the examples on the page are correctly being used other than Avatar, but I know that MMORPG example (especially the Fan Myopia for World Of Warcraft) doesn't even make any sense. People only played them because they found it appealing to play with thousands of other immature gamers? The game's settings and gameplay had nothing to do with it?

Yeahno that doesn't fly.

suedenim Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl from Jet Dream HQ Since: Oct, 2009
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
#24: Nov 21st 2010 at 9:30:56 PM

Gah, that MMORPG example *is* terribly written. But I do get the point it's trying to make, which is basically something like "The Massively Multiplayer aspect was what drew people in, especially at first, because it was so novel and unheard-of at the time." Filter out the weird editorializing and it makes sense.

edited 21st Nov '10 9:31:43 PM by suedenim

Jet-a-Reeno!
Azek Since: Oct, 2010
#25: Jan 3rd 2011 at 11:42:25 PM

"The marvel is not that the bear dances well, but that the bear dances at all." — Russian proverb

Russian is my first language, and that's the first time i ever of heard this one.

edited 3rd Jan '11 11:42:52 PM by Azek

PageAction: DancingBear
28th Jun '11 8:53:12 AM

Crown Description:

Pick a new name (if any) for this trope

Total posts: 46
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