I would agree that the marvel universe is a crapsack world bt to me this is way over the top, it's bad but not that bad. Saying that from what I can tell new york had to deal with a demonic invasion, a rip in time, daredevil setting up a fucking castle and enforcing the law with ninjas and God knows what else all in about the space of a week so maybe this description is right.
don't ya know there ain't no devil that's just God when he's drunkCrapsack World has more to do with presentation and attitude than content. It is not simply a world where a lot of bad stuff happens. So no.
edited 31st Oct '10 3:49:57 PM by Nornagest
I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.In the Marvel Universe, isn't Status Quo Is God in full effect? So, no matter how many superpowered villains, alien conquerors, and extradimensional monsters are roaming about, the average person on Earth isn't going to lead a substantially different life than they would in the real world?
Well, nobody reads comics about "Average People", unless entire countries-full of them are getting wiped out by Ultron or something.
And on a less-cosmic scale than the above rant, remember that we're talking about a world where the US government has decided (repeatedly) that GIANT KILLER ROBOTS were the best way to deal with a potentially fracticious ethnic minority.
The Marvel Universe can occasionally be a fun place to read about, but I surely wouldn't want to live there.
edited 31st Oct '10 5:33:34 PM by arbane
Ignore all the ranting in that great huge Wall O'Text and let's compare the World of the Marvel Universe to the actual definition of Crapsack World:
"The Crapsack World is a horrible place to live, and it corrupts its inhabitants into perpetuating that nastiness against each other. A Crapsack World is a world which can be summed up as "pessimism has taken over" or "the world can't be redeemed." More prosaically, it sucks."
A Crapsack world isn't based on whether I would want to live there or not. It's based on how it is presented by the author — is he trying to make you say "Gahhh. That's horrible" about every facet of the world?
Is the Marvel Universe a horrible place to live for everyone in it? Can you legitimately say "Pessimism has taken over?" How about "The inhabitants are corrupted into perpetuating nastiness against each other"? Does the whole Marvel world suck?
On to the next paragraph in the description:
"Expect the villains to have good publicity and the inhabitants to die like animals; if the villains aren't popular, then they are so overwhelmingly powerful that nobody dares to fight them. "
Is this the case with the Marvel villains?
And the section on the heroes of a Crapsack World:
"The heroes protagonists in this setting will be antiheroes at best and at worst so unsympathetic and repulsive that the villains start looking good by comparison. If The Messiah is around, he will probably eventually be revealed to be a charlatan or fraud, or be depicted as hopelessly naive and generally useless. At best he'll become a cynic himself, at worst he'll die at the worst possible way. "
Does that apply to the Marvel universe?
edited 1st Nov '10 6:19:10 PM by Madrugada
Well, let's look at the post-Civil War Marvel Universe.
People were so head up with fear that the United States Government conscripted every man, woman, and child with superpowers into a non-volunteer army on threat of being put into an inter-dimensional prison indefinitely without a trial. Unless you were a mutant, then you were instead forced into a concentration camp; but that was for "their own protection". Oh, and the number of mutants was dwindling.
One of the most insane super-villains was put in charge of said army of non-volunteer heroes. He also made a group of super villains in the costumes of heroes.
When Civil War started, the heroes instantly went at each others throats instead of politely disagreeing. When it was over, the man who was supposed to be the symbol of the American spirit was shot dead on the way to his trial for treason. And the most powerful hero on the planet at the time was utterly insane. Oh, and things were so bad that one of the heroes decided to make a deal with what is essentially Satan to destroy his marriage, and this was supposed to seem like the sensible thing to do.
I think the only thing that would keep all of that from being a crap sack is that the authors and editors are just are too clueless to realize that the need to pull back the Grimdark just a little. Maybe things have gotten better since I gave up on Marvel (and DC), but everything that I have read about it (them) lately indicates things are at best Crap Saccharine.
Both Civil War and Dark Reign are temporary storylines and will be followed by the Heroic Age, which actually doesn't sound too bad. Except if heroes are to be heroes again they need to have villians. As opposed to Civil War where they all just fought each other. But the Heroic Age seems to focus on the heroes actually getting better after all the previous stuff. Which suggests that the Marvel world is not that crappy, or at least can be improved. Whether they do it or just keep on with the grimdark remains to be seen.
It usually depends on the era. The Dark Age was full of writers trying to make EVERY comic universe crapsack.
Septimus - Everything since Avengers: Disassembled to Siege and Second Coming in main Marvel (Avengers, X-Men, Spidey, aside OMD) can bee seen as a big mix of deconstructions and Earn Your Happy Ending and a lot of meta commentary on different ages. Dark Reign is basically one big meta version od Dark Age. I would like to see people getting over with it, especially that Marvel moved away from those days.
So, it sounds like a more accurate example would be:
The Marvel Universe was one during the "Civil War" and "Dark Reign" arcs, but, in keeping with the standard comicbook practice of reinventing the characters and settings on a fairly regular basis, is more moving back out of it in the "Heroic Age."?
edited 2nd Nov '10 6:01:19 PM by Madrugada
We'll see. As a whole, comics haven't been "light-hearted" in 30 or more years.
My prediction is that this attempted "revival" of the Silver Age is going to fail. Badly. Not due to bad writing (so to speak), but because it's a doomed mission from the start. The Silver Age existed largely because the Comics Code Authority mandated that the good guys always win and contemporary social mores reign supreme. We don't have any such mandate in this day and age, so at best, we'll simply end up creating a new Bronze Age. At worse, we'll Flanderize what the Silver Age was meant to represent into shallow ShoutOuts and CallBacks that make little more than a mockery of the original source material.
It doesn't have to be "lighthearted" to be " not crapsack". On a scale of one to 10, where one is the brightest happiest, funnest place ever for real, and 10 is the all the circles of hell roled into one bleak nasty depressing world, "lighthearted" might fall as high as 3 or 4. Crapsack is at 8 or 9. There's a loooooooooooooong way between them.
edited 2nd Nov '10 6:05:02 PM by Madrugada
Granted. But, I was speaking of the area between 5 and 6 on the scale.
Usually, that's the threshold that separates a total victory for a hero (with few consequences and/or losses) and a victory which comes at heavy price. Happy Ending versus Earn Your Happy Ending.

Found this under Crapsack World. I was tempted to just delete it, given how over-the-top it is, but it made me think.
In the regular Marvel Universe God committed suicide to create reality "in all its varied forms". Whoever took up the vacant position enforces a system wherein 90% of all desperate sentients struggling to survive, are tortured forever after death, which, to say the least, would be unconstructive absolute evil of such chilling extent as to make Stalin or Hitler blush in comparison, and entitled Disproportionate Retribution for pretty much anyone except those who enforce the system. In addition the entity itself is fine with, for example, allowing the Time Keepers to wipe out most of the multiverse, or personally manipulate Thanos to destroy all of it due to a "design flaw". Pretty much all other higher entities are either completely amoral casually genocidal bastards feeling justified to be so out of absolute entitlement, and are completely uncaring and unreliable, whereas its main servant the Tribunal is established to slaughter universal populations at the drop of a hat if it simply finds a kewler new toy. And that's to say nothing of the swarming horde of malevolent demonic beings who want to ravage all of creation, turn it into an eternal genocide-camp, eat the souls of humanity, or just torture them forever for kicks, or that anyone who is likely to assume awesome power every few years tends to be a sadistic supremacist of either the amoral or nihilistic variety, all the civilisations-destroying star-spanning empires or powerful game-playing immortals who routinely slaughter billions of aliens, the serial-killing villains and war-mongering conquerors that never get a true comeuppance, and will just run free to regularly cause human death-tolls that make 9/11 look like a liquor store robbery over and over and over for the protagonists to vainly repeat the same dance again, and we're not talking about new foes replacing the old ones, which would make far more sense. The completely outmatched protectors are at best able to gain Pyrrhic Victory by keeping the casualty numbers down and stalling the overwhelming tides of darkness from igniting complete Armageddon yet another day, and likely will get persecuted for the effort. On top of that, most of the "heroes" would generally qualify as self-righteous, casually murderous, stylish, callous speech making, "law unto their own" crusading villains in any less Black-and-Gray Morality setting. Oh, and the few things that actually are positive, i.e. the advanced technology, don't really improve anything, since Reed Richards Is Useless to the point that Warren Ellis' Planetary series made this Hand Wave elitism into its entire premise. In addition much of the "moral message" the writers tend to make an effort with is centered around destructive hate-propaganda against very simplified, skewed, and inaccurately portrayed versions of people with mental illnesses, medical disorders, autism, schizophrenia, extensive trauma, torture, isolation, and so on, as this has turned into the default trend of explaining "what defines the villains as evil", but generally only break down into callous and conceited justifications of bigotry, sadistic bullying, or marketing "the more pain you cause, the more justified you get to cause even more, and never ever bother to actually find ways to repair the damage even if you have the means"-style ideology. And that was literally Marvel at its most optimistic. The entire place is fundamentally completely metaphysically corrupt almost no matter the angle you view it from. Naturally, occasionally the "powers that be" try to present it as a Crapsaccharine World instead.
To make a long story short, the Marvel Universe in general is, without any potential doubt whatsoever, a virtually irredeemable Crapsack World.
edited 31st Oct '10 12:19:36 AM by feotakahari
That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful