TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Rework or Cleanup:: Evilly Affable

Go To

Deadlock Clock: Sep 9th 2011 at 11:59:00 PM
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#51: Oct 9th 2010 at 9:33:44 PM

After reading this discussion, I'm still totally confused about the distinction between Affably Evil and Evilly Affable. So Evilly Affable is for villains who are evil but also happen to be likeable, and Affably Evil is for villains who are likeable but also happen to be evil? =/

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#52: Oct 9th 2010 at 9:43:03 PM

Evilly Affable is Obviously Evil, but in a witty, stylish, and above all funny manner. Affably Evil is a polite, gentlemanly, friendly soul who just happens to also be capable of performing monstrous acts. In the former, the likability stems from the evil (or, at least, how it's performed). In the latter, the likability is in addition to, and entirely unrelated to, being evil.

Common reaction to Evilly Affable: "Sure, Lord Evilgeddon's a dick, but he's a hilarious dick."

Common reaction to Affably Evil: "You know, Lord Evilgeddon would be a really nice guy if it wasn't for that baby-impaling habit of his."

edited 9th Oct '10 9:55:05 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
carla Since: Jan, 2010
#53: Oct 9th 2010 at 9:50:32 PM

mind you, it might be the word "affable" that's causing the confusion, not so much the world "evil." that is, it always seemed to me that the "affable" in Affably Evil was more about being cheerful, friendly, polite; while the "affable" in Evilly Affable was more about being funny, as in "makes you laugh." the former implies good times; the latter implies jokes, gags, hilarity. one word, two very different meanings.

the definitions i was working with, fwiw:

  • Affably Evil: polite, charming, cheerful guy who just so happens to deal in the business of villainy. but if you didn't know that for a fact, you would never suspect him of it. he's just so... nice, even when he's killing puppies, that you just know if he weren't evil he would be a great person. (when i think of this, i usually think xellos from Slayers or Artemis Fowl at the beginning of the series).

  • Laughably Evil: this is the villain that is Played for Laughs. he may be the legitimate Big Bad of the work, but the way he's presented, the way he talks, the way he reacts to things, his quirks, the way other characters react to him, were designed to make us laugh. he can be a Harmless Villain or an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain, or he may even be genuinely scary sometimes, but he's just so lulzy. and when the movie or the episode is over, what you remember most is that he was hilarious. (the ones that first comes to my mind in this case is hades from hercules or the joker from the 60's batman TV series).

  • Evilly Affable: now this is an actual psychopath. he goes around killing people and committing all kinds of heinous acts because that's just kind of the person he is. thing is, he's so over-the-top about his psychopathy that he's... kind of hilarious, too. they're really entertaining to watch/read, and they can draw laughs out of you, but it's Black Comedy for the most part, and when the episode or movie is done, the main thing that goes through your mind when you think about this character is Fridge Horror. (this is where most incarnations of the joker would go).

btw, i would say Evilly Affable characters at the very least can be Complete Monsters as well. i would absolutely remove the line that says they're "complete opposites"— they're not. in fact, an irredeemable villain being affable might be the thing to catapult him to Complete Monster status, because if he can so easily joke about his horrible deeds, that means he really could not care less. Affably Evil characters... might qualify. but definitely not the Laughably Evil, because a character who basically is the joke can't be a Complete Monster.

edited 9th Oct '10 9:53:41 PM by carla

arks Boiled and Mashed Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Boiled and Mashed
#54: Oct 11th 2010 at 7:24:16 AM

I made a crowner for this topic. Can a mod attach it to the thread?

Also, if you would like to reword the arguments you support, go ahead and do so.

Video Game Census. Please contribute.
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#55: Oct 11th 2010 at 4:54:35 PM

I haven't looked through this thread... at least not yet... but I thought this was supposed to be for the subset of Laughably Evil villains who take their villainy to an either completely monstrous, or at least almost-monstrous, extreme...

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#56: Oct 11th 2010 at 6:00:56 PM

I would strongly disagree with cutlisting or merging this trope. I think we need to start by looking at an iconic character: the Joker from the recent Dark Knight film. This is a character that is Evilly Affable. If anything, he could be the trope image. There are many other characters like him.

Here are the problems as I see it:

  • The trope puts too much emphasis on being funny. An Evilly Affable character is a character who you laugh with, not at, even though they are a character you Love to Hate. The difference being that Evilly Affable is a specific personality type... I would kind of seeit as a Counter Trope to Karmic Trickster almost.

  • The page has suffered from definition drift due to point #1. Making it a subtrope of Laughably Evil carries it in the direction away from being a distinct trope, because what makes it distinct is that the character is a seductive personality. He is fun to be around because he is evil.

  • Laughably Evil - the trope name seems to suggest a villain whose humor undercuts their villainy, even if that's not what is meant. Evilly Affable characters use humor (and non-humorous character traits, e.g. general good cheer) to enhance their villainy.

  • This trope is totally different from most other types of Laughably Evil, although it may technically be a subtrope, I think that this isn't the most relevant... this is a character you laugh with as he beats up the hero.

  • I agree with the definition suggested above by Carla.

  • Since I think the page needs to be redefined away from just being "funny", I totally don't get the argument that this is merely Laughably Evil. It's closer to Black Humor meets Evil Is Cool...

I think it's a straight inverse of Affably Evil: a character whose personality inspires perverse fascination.

edited 11th Oct '10 8:04:09 PM by berr

carla Since: Jan, 2010
#57: Oct 11th 2010 at 7:59:13 PM

nooo, no, Evilly Affable is most definitely not similar to Laughably Evil at all. going with what berr said, if Evilly Affable is a villain you laugh with, Laughably Evil is a villain you laugh at.

definitely in favor of redefining this trope (and the other two, if possible).

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#58: Oct 18th 2010 at 5:42:55 PM

Actually, carla, Laughably Evil says it's supposed to be villains who are FUNNY, whether because you're laughing at them OR with them. Villains you simply laugh AT have their own trope.

TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#59: Oct 19th 2010 at 1:22:32 AM

If Evilly Affable and Affably Evil are so distinct and distinguishable from each other, why did we make their names so ridiculously similar?

Even if I could mentally pinpoint the distinction and memorize it, I couldn't be bothered to remember which is which. Our audience is mostly composed of people who aren't going to go to the forum and read this thread and educate themselves on the fine distinctions between Affably Evil and Evilly Affable and Instance Of Evil Affability and Amalgamation Of Evil And Aff.

Either cut one of those or rename one of those or merge one of those to some other trope, I don't care, but do something.

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#60: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:32:04 AM

"If Evilly Affable and Affably Evil are so distinct and distinguishable from each other, why did we make their names so ridiculously similar?" - TE

Because T Vtropes is bad at naming tropes. To single out these two is somewhat arbitrary; a lot of trope names here are misleading.

That said, I agree that one of these should be changed. Using affable in a different sense in each trope is just bad communication.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#61: Oct 19th 2010 at 7:48:00 AM

Possibly Evil Is Witty for Evilly Affable?

What's precedent ever done for us?
carla Since: Jan, 2010
#62: Oct 19th 2010 at 12:21:17 PM

@neo YT Pism— well, i was stating what i think it should be, or really the way i've been using it. i think it's easier to see it taking that distinction, so as not to get as much overlap.

i think there are many reasons you might laugh at a villain (their general mannerisms, the way they react to certain situations, etc) other than them being ineffectual or sympathetic, though. going with my previous examples, when i think of hades, i think "hilarious." i'm also aware that he had moments when other characters brushed him off because hilarious = non-threatening in character world. but no matter how funny he is, i would never think of him as sympathetic, and i don't think he was ineffectual at all— he was a bona-fide thread by the end of the movie. (his minions might count as Ineffectual Sympathetic Villains, though... they never did get anything right and they were Ugly Cute).

OR it may just be that i'm getting these wrong and Laughably Evil's description is vague enough that it makes the name misleading in itself. because the name does imply that the villain's evilness is... well, laughable.

"Using affable in a different sense in each trope is just bad communication."

YES. this is basically it, IMO.

i would support Nice Evil (EDIT: in place of Affably Evil, that is) or something like that just for the oxymoron. evil grin

edited 19th Oct '10 2:47:38 PM by carla

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#63: Oct 19th 2010 at 1:24:40 PM

"i think there are many reasons you might laugh at a villain (their general mannerisms, the way they react to certain situations, etc) other than them being ineffectual or sympathetic, though. going with my previous examples, when i think of hades, i think "hilarious." . . . no matter how funny he is, i would never think of him as sympathetic, and i don't think he was ineffectual at all" - carla

Exactly, which is part of why he's considered Evilly Affable.

carla Since: Jan, 2010
#64: Oct 19th 2010 at 2:47:14 PM

^ well, i did say in a previous post that i consider him more of a Laughably Evil villain. the "other characters brushed him off" bit kind of separates him from Evilly Affable for me. although i notice he's listed in both tropes— hence a good reason for this thread, i guess.

i'm just making suggestions for a differentiation here. i wouldn't want any of these tropes to get cut, as they seem very different in my mind, but they clearly need to be reworked.

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#65: Oct 19th 2010 at 3:11:37 PM

... well, the other characters "brush him off" before they realize how much of a threat he is. o.o

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#66: Oct 19th 2010 at 3:38:40 PM

"Affable" has nothing to do with "funny" or "amusing".

It means "Receiving others kindly and conversing with them in a free and friendly manner; friendly, courteous, sociable; Mild; benign".

"Affably" doesn't mean "funny" or "amusing" either. It means "in an affable manner".

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#67: Oct 19th 2010 at 4:17:30 PM

Then it's Evilly Affable that needs to be renamed. What it's about right now is villains who are amusing and/or otherwise entertaining, but evil to either a monstrous or at least almost-monstrous extreme.

arks Boiled and Mashed Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Boiled and Mashed
#68: Oct 19th 2010 at 5:02:23 PM

That's why most people want to redefine it to fit the name better.

Video Game Census. Please contribute.
carla Since: Jan, 2010
#69: Oct 19th 2010 at 5:09:34 PM

"... well, the other characters "brush him off" before they realize how much of a threat he is. o.o"

i was thinking mainly about his own minions, actually. pain and panic, they try to pull fast ones on him a few times (the "hercules"-brand sandals come to mind), even though they know first-hand what hades can do. and megara, who overall treats him as if they were on equal standing even though he's got her soul literally in the palm of his hand.

put it in a simpler way, i believe an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain is Laughably Evil, but not all Laughably Evil villains are ineffectual or sympathetic.

i agree, though, that it's Evilly Affable that needs to get a name change, pronto, to distinguish it from Affably Evil. a sharper distinction from the other related tropes would be a godsend, but that's probably a matter for another thread.

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#70: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:17:37 PM

"That's why most people want to redefine it to fit the name better." - arks

... but the name is remarkably similar to Affably Evil, and Affably Evil already fits "affable" in the sense Madrugada pointed out. If we fit the Evilly Affable name better, I find it hard to believe that it's going to not seem redundant compared to Affably Evil.

Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#71: Oct 20th 2010 at 8:11:41 AM

If I may, I wish to note that the reason Evilly Affable and Laughably Evil are separate for me is simply because Evilly Affable people aren't always funny.

You can have a villain that's utterly evil and stylish, witty, pleasant, charismatic, cool, etc. in the way he does said evil that isn't meant to make you laugh at all, or even smile in amusement. There's a big difference to me between a villain meant to be comedically evil and a villain that's "simply" stylish, genial, and/or entertaining in their evil. Putting the latter character in Laughably Evil would be just as confusing and out of place to me as the current situation.

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#72: Oct 20th 2010 at 9:43:17 AM

^ So "Evilly Affable" is basically any evil character some viewer happens to find entertaining?

One, that'd mean it's straight to the YMMV tab with it; two, as pointed out earlier, that's not what the word "affable" means.

edited 20th Oct '10 9:45:46 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
carla Since: Jan, 2010
#73: Oct 20th 2010 at 11:01:57 AM

i mostly agree with jeysie. i have to add, though, that it's not what the villain does that is supposed to make us laugh, but the way he does it— no, we're not supposed to laugh at the fact that he's committing mass murder, but most people would laugh when a "stylish, witty, pleasant, charismatic, cool" guy is committing mass murder. it's the irony that makes him entertaining. so yeah, an Evilly Affable villain can make you laugh in that sense.

on the other hand, i don't think Affably Evil has to be funny. an Affably Evil villain just has to be a nice, friendly, corteous, benign person who otherwise performs evil deeds. a perfectly "average joe"-personality villain will be Affably Evil even if his personality is so average so borderline normal that it's boring. "affable" is used right in that case. not so with Evilly Affable— being stylish or witty doesn't mean you're a nice, just that you're entertaining. that's why it's Evilly Affable that needs a name change.

Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#74: Oct 20th 2010 at 4:55:05 PM

Triple Elation: Uh, no. I'm using the same definition as everyone else in the thread is using. Just pointing out that it's possible for such a character to be entertaining yet not really funny. (As for your second point, whether it needs to be renamed or not is a separate question; was just saying I don't think merging it with Laughably Evil is necessarily the right call.)

carla: Can make you laugh, yes. But isn't necessarily intended to, while the point of a Laughably Evil character to me is that they're definitely meant to be comedic.

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#75: Oct 20th 2010 at 6:17:49 PM

^ You made an argument regarding Evilly Affable starting with "You can have a villain that's utterly evil and stylish, witty, pleasant, charismatic, cool, etc. in the way he does said evil...", all of which are supposed to fall under this trope. How is this not "Villain but with a quality I find entertaining"? Doesn't the "etc." stand for "and every other quality someone out there might find entertaining"?

edited 20th Oct '10 6:19:28 PM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

AlternativeTitles: EvillyAffable
22nd Aug '11 8:50:58 AM

Crown Description:

Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.

Total posts: 330
Top