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Rename to Abusively Sexy Woman: Abusively Sexy Bitch

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Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#1: Nov 8th 2010 at 4:18:00 PM

A quick question:

Anyone mind of I rename Abusively Sexy Bitch to Abusively Sexy Woman?

During the development of that trope, one person complained about having the b-word in the title, but the objection was withdrawn and neither I nor anyone else thought of the simple solution at the time. After launch another guy complained about the b-word, and I then realized that the word was actually an unnecceecary emphasis: "Abusively" is already in the name, so no b-word is needed for extra emphasis. Also, while all examples are characters who are abusive, many of them are not in any way considered "bitches" by anyone in the story.

So, this is simply about getting rid of the b-word for this particular trope. If I change it, I'll also change all the potholes.

For any other discussion regarding the two b-words bastard and bitch, see the other thread.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#2: Nov 8th 2010 at 4:22:08 PM

There was absolutely no need to create a whole new thread for a "quick question". Just bump the existing one, please.

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Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Nov 8th 2010 at 4:40:06 PM

The existing thread is about whether we needed to keep the Bastard/Bitch pairings in general. I told Xzenu to make one specifically for this trope, if he wanted to ask for a change from Abusively Sexy Bitch to Abusively Sexy Woman, for two reasons: so that page would have the TRS tag, and so that we could concentrate on whether "Bitch" is necessary in this particular name, rather than how it is used compared to "bastard".

Unlocking.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#4: Nov 8th 2010 at 4:50:09 PM

OP: "Abusively Sexy Bitch" and "Abusively Sexy Woman" imply different things, "bitch" is charged (positive or negative depends on the user/use imo) and "woman" is neutral. I think a better solution would be to rename it "Abusively Sexy".

edit: Ack, that exists. Hm, I thought I understood the issue, and apparently I don't. Ignore for now...

edit edit: But, yeah, that is not a "quick question" or a simple/obvious rename, is it?

edit edit edit: Okay, I see, Abusively Sexy Bitch is supposed to be a subtrope of Abusively Sexy. Why the separate article? They are both light on examples. Merge imo: one article with a medium number of examples instead of two articles with a low number of examples, and broadened (currently unnecessarily narrow). "Abusively Sexy" is a better name for lots of reasons besides not having "bitch" in the title.

edited 8th Nov '10 4:54:56 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
DarkKaizer The Fulltropal Alchemist from A world of escapism... Since: Nov, 2010
The Fulltropal Alchemist
#5: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:12:43 PM

[up] Agreed. It seems more logical to have one page than two seperate ones in this scenario. Having Abusively Sexy seperate from Abusively Sexy Bitch seems to be a bit sexist, IMO.

Or, alternatively, we could have an Abusively Sexy Bastard page.

edit: Scratch that. Already have one, although redirecting to Bastard Boyfriend seems a bit strange. Why does a Bastard Boyfriend have to be Sexy?

edited 8th Nov '10 5:15:22 PM by DarkKaizer

My Brother, and only member of my Trope Nakama
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#6: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:17:04 PM

Abusively Sexy Man and Abusively Sexy Bastard are redirects to Bastard Boyfriend, which is a) inaccurate and b) unnecessarily confusing. Removing them.

edit: done, and cleaned potholes/redlinks, but, those two are still blue because they are "edited to be like new" and not actually "like new" (which would be red). Important?

edited 8th Nov '10 5:22:22 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:22:47 PM

Rodney, please don't unilaterally remove redirects. It doesn't work well.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#8: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:23:19 PM

Suggest: one article named Abusively Sexy, with Abusively Sexy Bitch and Abusively Sexy Bastard as redirects. Merge as needed.

edit: [up] okay, sorry, thought it was "obviously wrong" (bastard boyfriends are not necessarily sexy) and confusing actual issue

edited 8th Nov '10 5:25:00 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#9: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:25:55 PM

Hi rodney Anonymous,

It's 2am here and I'm dead tired. Sorry for being unclear.

Brief recap:

  1. "Abusively Sexy [gender]" is a gendered character type. The female trope is about being a woman who is Abusively Sexy, and thus "woman" is the most accurate word to signify her gender.
  2. Abusively Sexy itself is about social structure rather then individual characters. For example, the band Blutengel and the tabletop game Vampire The Masquerade both tend to portray vampire culture in this way.
  3. The character type tropes are going to remain gendereded, separated into spear and distaff, as per agreement in a previous thread: While Abusively Sexy Woman and Bastard Boyfriend have a lot in common, there are also big differences. So merging it all together into one trope is not an option - and that discussion is already concluded and locked, so I'd really prefer if we don't start it all over again. Having the female character and the structural level as one trope while the male separate is also a option that we have already concluded is not optimal.
  4. The titles Abusively Sexy Woman and Abusively Sexy Bitch was both thought up by me, the only problem is that the trope had already been online for a while when I thought of the better title.

So, yes, it is a simple question: The trope is about a woman character who is Abusively Sexy, so shall we simply call her Abusively Sexy Woman or do we need to add the word "bitch" for extra emphasis?

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#10: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:27:25 PM

[up] Gotcha. No, I think instead "Abusively Sexy Bitch or Woman" should be merged with "Abusively Sexy"; female-only is unnecessarily narrow. nothing looks dumber than claiming to understand something and then demonstrating that you don't

edited 8th Nov '10 5:48:47 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
DarkKaizer The Fulltropal Alchemist from A world of escapism... Since: Nov, 2010
The Fulltropal Alchemist
#11: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:28:23 PM

[up][up] Don't really see the word "bitch" as being a necessity in this trope. "Abusive" already shows the bitch-status of the character for the most part, even if only slightly.

[up] Rodney, Abusively Sexy isn't about specific characters, so it wouldn't work out too well.

edited 8th Nov '10 5:29:30 PM by DarkKaizer

My Brother, and only member of my Trope Nakama
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#12: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:33:25 PM

[up] So Abusively Sexy is trope A, Abusively Sexy Female is trope B, and Abusively Sexy Male (redirect to Bastard Boyfriend) is trope C?

No, I think Abusively Sexy, Abusively Sexy Female, and Abusively Sexy Male are all one trope (trope A, or whatever).

Oh, I see, that argument was "resolved". Those are some pretty similar names for tropes that are allegedly about different types of things (characters vs situations). Oh well. If you want the gender labels to be totally neutral, Male/Female is better than Man/Woman, imo. But yeah, sure, rename... agree with Kaizer, the "extra emphasis" from "bitch" is not needed.

edited 8th Nov '10 5:46:26 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#13: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:48:08 PM

Regading the Spear Counterpart:

Actually, a "Bastard Boyfriend" as per the TROPE Bastard Boyfriend is by definition sexy. The trope definition is about how his cruelty or abusiveness is used for Fetish Fuel. Confusing? Yes, the title and trope definition still confuse the hell out of me.

Quoting the start and the end of the trope description:

"A common Japanese character type, the Bastard Boyfriend (in Japanese, kichiku, literally "brutal" or "demonic") character is an Always Male Love Interest whose defining trait is that he is cold, cruel, or abusive to his romantic partner, in a manner intended to be kinky and appealing to the audience. "

"A Handy Chart to determine if a character is this trope:
Your guy is in love, and he demonstrates his love in an abusive or predatory manner. His love interest:

I have previously reccomended that Bastard Boyfriend get renamed to Abusively Sexy Bastard, but shimaspawn argued that it should keep it's name so I simply kept Abusively Sexy Bastard as a redirect - and also added Abusively Sexy Man when I realized we didn't need the b-words.

Actually, if you guys want to merge then I think we have a simple solution:

Bastard Boyfriend is primarily a Anime Character Type. If we simply define it as anime only, then we have answered the question of WTF the difference is between a Bastard Boyfriend and a male Abusively Sexy character is.

So:

Either is fine with me.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#14: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:52:38 PM

[up] I am in favor of the broadest scope and fewest number of articles (as opposed to narrowest scope and most numerous).

edited 8th Nov '10 5:57:33 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#15: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:57:05 PM

Of course, there's still the issue that shimaspawn brought up, with the male and female character type being played in quite different ways - taking difference in gender structures et cetera into account.

Thus, I suggest that we do NOT do any merging at this point. Lets just stick to renaming the female trope.

And so far, it seems we all agree that "woman" is the preferable word to signify her gender.

DarkKaizer The Fulltropal Alchemist from A world of escapism... Since: Nov, 2010
The Fulltropal Alchemist
#16: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:59:17 PM

Yeah, redefining Abusively Sexy seems to be the best option here. Not only making it refer to settings, but to particular characters as well. Will definitely cause less confusion for the most part.

My Brother, and only member of my Trope Nakama
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#17: Nov 8th 2010 at 6:07:54 PM

Or we end up with two tropes:

  • Abusively Sexy that cover the structural level as well as individual characters regardless of gender. "Abusively sexy males tend to be like A, B, and C... abusively sexy females tend to be like X, Y, and Z."
  • The anime character type Bastard Boyfriend.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#18: Nov 8th 2010 at 8:15:43 PM

Woah, just a second here.

Bastard Boyfriend should not be an anime only trope. It occurs in romance novels too.

It's a clear solid trope, but everyone keeps on trying to change it and rename it or whatever, just so it can fit better in some new fangled organization that makes little sense in how tropes are actually used in fiction.

As to the actual topic of this thread. I really don't care whether it's woman or bitch. In fact I think I'd prefer woman, since bitchiness is not required as far as I understand it.

Might I point out that this is what comes of launching tropes far to quickly, with far too many similar tropes drowning each other out.

DarkKaizer The Fulltropal Alchemist from A world of escapism... Since: Nov, 2010
The Fulltropal Alchemist
#19: Nov 8th 2010 at 9:24:41 PM

[up] Read that in Wayne's voice... was hillarious.

But on a more serious note, it seems to be the simple fact that the word "bitch" makes the trope seem a little too forceful in this case. Changing the title will do for now, but we'll have to look into other ways to make the pages mentioned here better suited for all of our standards.

My Brother, and only member of my Trope Nakama
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