I think most of the main cast is early twenties? (Which doesn't necessarily help with insufferability, granted.) I know Rand's got a couple years on Egwene, at least.
Gawyn had grown up with the common perception that the Dragon was going to be a dangerous individual who was going to usher in the end-times. Then he finds out that guy he met once is, in fact, the Dragon, and hears that the Dragon killed his mom. For a long time, he doesn't have anyone disabusing him of any of these notions. It'd be like finding out the Devil is real, and then hearing that the Devil killed your mom. Who's going to be inclined to question it?
I wasn't a big Gawyn fan. Once he developed feelings for Egwene, he turned into the male romantic lead in a bad YA novel for girls.
I found Perrin and Faile hard to take, too. Not a little bit because Faile, like pretty much everyone in Wheel of Time who's culture has customs that could appear outre to modern Western audiences, apparently figures that her customs and familiar way of life are universally accepted and explicable. I can't tell you how many times I wished someone would smack an Aiel upside the head and tell them that most of the world ain't Aiel, and so doesn't follow their damned Ji-eh-toh.
Is there a trope for "exotic foreigner treats everyone like idiots for not behaving according to their cultural standards and nobody ever calls them out on it"? Kinda like cultural Can't Argue with Elves, cause the Aiel were neck deep in that.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.Just want to vent a bit. I started The Wheel of Time series about 2 months ago (i´m almost done with Winters Heart now), because people kept mentioning it as one of, if not the best fantasy series of all time. I don´t agree. By this point i dislike all major characters (except Perrin who is neutral), all major factions are assholes (especially the Seanchan who are worse than the Forsaken if two or more of them are present at the same time) and i have problems with most fundamental characteristics of the world. I´m only continuing because the story itself is kind of interesting and i hate to leave a series unfinished. Though admittedly there are moments which are just *chefs kiss* (for example the death scene of Fedwin was one of the most touching things i´ve read in a while)
I stuck with the series until the end; I think that was mostly because it was the first long running series I picked up, and I hate leaving things unfinished. I have not touched any of them since I finished A Memory of Light, and I do not think that is going to change. I have always been interested in worldbuilding, but that world is stuffed to the gills with morons of every variety, more sexism than I can easily articulate; and for when you have finished the series, not one but two slavery cultures being let off the hook by every surviving protagonist at the end made me wish Rand indulged the Dark One's desires instead.
Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Oct 17th 2020 at 3:14:58 PM
I like Wheel of Time, but it's a very warts-and-all sort of affection. I like how much it feels like the world is bigger than the already vast amount we see on the page, full of places and history and popular culture that only get offhand references. I like that the setting advances as we watch, with characters innovating new tactics and technology and even magic that surpasses the fallen ancient civilization. I like how the Emond's Field crew develops from freaked-out farmkids to leaders and heroes. I like that the "savage" "barbarian" culture which isn't actually either of those when you get to know them is a bunch of blue-eyed white folks. I like the way the Ogier hit all the standard elf beats without being annoying about it and while hiding them in an ogre suit. And frankly, after all the Japanese fantasy stuff with cute slave waifus I like that the Seanchan's slavery is presented as a crime against human dignity. It's still not something I can unreservedly recommend, for reasons I don't think I need to enumerate.
Yeah, same. Honestly, I don't find any one flaw specifically dealbreaking — it's more the monotony and glacial pace of the middle books, a few infuriating character decisions and some worldbuilding and plot directions that never feel quite earned, somewhat counterbalanced by a few really, really good story beats. I don't regret reading it, but I wouldn't do it again.
Also I stan Rand.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.I've been listening to the audiobook versions to help keep things moving. I've gotten through the first three, but the fact the Shadow rising (~41 hrs) is almost as long as IT (~45 hrs) is a little intimidating.
Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Oct 18th 2020 at 9:54:31 AM
Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.I´m now at about a third of Knife of Dreams and honest question, is it even worth finishing the series? By now i know that the heros will succeed in resealing the Dark One, because otherwise the Weave would be unmade which includes the past therefore the mere existance of the story shows that the Weave won´t be destroyed ergo the Dark One will be defeated. All of the acchievements the heros made are moot, because the Wheel will just turn to unmake them so they can make the same acchievments again. The only reason to finish would be the characters and basicly all of the main ones suck by now. Especially Mat is so much worse than in the early books, there at least he had the excuse of being cursed or knowing he´s dying. I´m reading Mat chapters with Tuon right now it it just makes me shake with rage at them. This series was praised for its characters and the only thing it did was make them worse with each book, while they didn´t even start great....
Well, can't speak for you, but personally I find that at least one of the main characters has absolutely amazing payoff in his arc. And the part about the Wheel is a plot point that gets addressed, for what it's worth.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.![]()
If you are that far in, I say stick with it. There are payoffs in a couple of arcs, and a few moments that have almost compelled me to pick the books back up in spite of myself. Of course, that could just be the completionist in me, and some rose tint on account of knowing there is some payoff in a couple of areas I considered highlights amid the dreck.
I´m now pretty far into the Gathering Storm and wow the later parts of Knife of Dream and the Gathering Storm are really great. I still dislike most of the characters, but somehow the story is gripping me and not letting me go. My compliments to either Jordan or Sanderson, because i don´t like reading Rands chapters because they make me feel depressed which i´m pretty sure i was supposed to feel. I was just at the Egwene/Verin scene and that one i´m sure is going to be one of the top10 scenes in the series.
By the way i see Hinderstap as a miniature for the whole world. They have their times of happiness, but the terror and darkness will always come back. There is no escape just the eternally reoccuring nightmare. It´s the same as in the world at large, only daily instead of over thousands of years. The only question is if the average happiness of day is worth the unmeasurable terror of night... Well at least Hinderstap has hope that if the Dark one is defeated things will return to normal the world doesn´t have that hope because the Dark One almost escaping is part of the turning of the wheel... (i´m pretty sure Sanderson wrote Hinderstap, it fits too well with his habit of reimagening the undead (see Elentris, Shadows for Silence, Warbreaker, Stormlight, kind of Mistborn))
I´m still pretty much in favor of doing the only thing with actual meaning and just destroy the Wheel, Rand should be able to do it with the Choden Kal and some weeks time.
Edited by Samaldin on Nov 7th 2020 at 5:39:15 PM
That is the exact reason that dudes like Ishamael are villains, yeah. Ya gotta find ways to reckon with nihilism that don't involve murdering literally everything. Take a course on existentialism, maybe.
And I admit I don't really get the appeal of oblivion here because that also prevents any improvement starting from a considerably shorter time frame than "so far in the future that even the garbled mythified version of this age has been forgotten."
Edited by rikalous on Nov 8th 2020 at 6:03:33 AM
I finished The Gathering Storm (and read the first three chapters of Towers of Midnight) and Rands reasoning for stoping... Basicly he has two. The Wheel turning means the good comes along again as well as the bad. Personal choice if the good parts are worth experiencing the bad, i won´t coment in this one. But the second one makes me angry. The Wheel turning doesn´t mean you get a second chance to do things better, you get a second chance to do the same thing with minor variation. The exact nature of Lews Therin tragedy might chance, but it will always be something so terrible he will suicide and create Dragonsmount so Rand can be born on its slopes.
I guess i was caught up in Rands mental problems, because intelectually i still am of my previous opinion but emotionaly i want to see the world saved (i´m surprised/annoyed how fast that switch happened...)
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Was the part about dealing with Nihilism adressed at me or Ishamael? Because i´m only a Nihilist in the world of Wo T^^. In RL i´m not sure what kind of -ism i´m following, since i refuse to read up on any of them because (and this is going to sound really pretentious) i wanted to come to my conclussion completely on my own. Only thing i ever managed to come up with (without immediatly finding tons of exceptions) is that personal choice should be of the highest importance. As far as i see it cyclical time negates personal choice, making me prefer the alternative.

Gawyn was just a giant waste of page time. He never amounted to anything, he never did anything interesting, he never had an interesting personality. He supported Elaida's faction in the Tower schism but also helped the rebels escape cause he was thinking with his dick. He spent the whole series seething about Rand while having met him all of once and the latter never dedicating so much as a passing thought to him (for the record, he thought Rand had killed Morgase for a long time). His romance with Egwene is the most rushed, underdeveloped and forced one in the series, which is no small feat. His final act is to nick some of the Seanchan Cast from Lifespan rings behind Egwene's back to try and kill Demandred only to fail utterly and die having accomplished jack shit, and to add insult to injury his completely un-powered brother comes right afterwards and does a better job of it.
He's just a waste. Whenever Gawyn was on the scene I wanted it to be over.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.