He made a big point that Bioware shouldn't change the ending due to pressure from fans. Taking back his own statements because a few overly-defensive people felt offended by a perfectly reasonable opinion would be outright hypocritical.
It's perfectly okay if you were disappointed by ME3's ending. Hell, you can even outright hate it if you want to. But when you reach the point where people are demanding the ending be changed, that's like inmates trying to run the asylum, so to speak.
edited 4th Apr '12 6:26:44 PM by Zennistrad
Nope not at all like inmates. Like I said before it is fine if they do and fine they don't change the ending. No different from changing the ending because some people didn't like it in a test screening. But Bob Straw manned everyone who DARED to ASK that they change the ending as whiny babies throwing a hissy fit and saying they "Set gaming back as an art form 10 years", (actual quote from him). This isn't oversensitivity he deserves to get thrown insults at for that.
I'm not asking him to take back his statements, I'm just hoping he actually listens to people with legitimate complaints and at least says "not all the people who want the ending changed are like that". Until than he is just being an asshole.
edited 4th Apr '12 6:40:01 PM by Wild-Card
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.I do agree with you there, but Bob's entire argument is that changing the ending because of audience reaction compromises artistic integrity.
Did you see the movie version of I Am Legend, for example? The ending was different from the book.
That alone wouldn't be a problem, adaptations making changes is nothing bad.
But what is wrong is that the movie's ending was going to be much closer to the book:
But they changed it because test audiences didn't like it. They cut the original ending because audiences didn't like it, and instead put in another action sequence to appeal to a wider demographic. The new ending arguably betrayed the entire point of the book in the first place, as the title "I Am Legend" refers to how the protagonist is just as much of a monster to the ones he is supposedly fighting.
All because test audiences didn't like it. Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but I would rather see video games have artistic integrity than compromise it to meet the expectations of others.
Oh no, I'm fine with Bob saying the Artistic Integrity argument even though I don't agree with it. I don't think "change my version of the ending to the canon one or I'll leave" suddenly became a lot worse just cause people became vocal in their displeasure. It is entirely in the WAY he says it that pissed me off and made it so I didn't watch his videos, (except Escape To the Movies cause he usually isn't that way in those).
I mean he spent like half of the next video saying "Your all brats for wanting the Mass Effect ending changed and this is why fandom can't have nice things." Seriously the whole point of the video is I might hate the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie but at least I'm not asking them to change it!
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.Bob's tone and manner in his videos do have a tendency of really hurting a viewer's potential to interpret his analysis and think thoughtfully about the questions he raises. There's a line he recently had about the ME 3 controversy that "the artist is the superior of his/her audience".
I suspect when it comes to his output, he he likely feels the same way. It would account for his tendency to address criticism of his work as having some other nefarious aspect to it (such as the dislike of his video game storylines being a sign of the current "grim and gritty" gaming culture's rejection of light hearted silliness and not that his viewers might find his output to be a little dubious).
Or just as a minor example whenever a video/article is posted that agrees with his point its given a full recommendation via his twitter or website, with statements about how its worth a look. By contrast opposing content is almost begrudgingly acknowledged with Bob practically rolling his eyes and stating that yes he did watch/read it, and that while he still doesn't agree, they still offered an opinion better than that of any fanboy trolls.
Now I'm not saying Bob needs to embrace opposition with open arms and a hug, but it would do better I think for him to not act like other differing views must have some dubious aspect to them. Even the stuff like his mockery of videos on youtube criticizing him, as if the very concept of reviewers criticizing reviewers is too derivative to be even considered regardless of content, reeks of an elitist and dare I say it, entitled attitude.
edited 4th Apr '12 8:23:51 PM by BorneAgain
I agree, he does have good points. I mean check out the very second GO. Link is too long..
I think Bob just got much much angrier for some reason. Somewhere decided that all his opposition were Trolls unless they have some "official backing" and didn't say things like "stay classy gamers" when people call him out on it. Whatever happened to not talking down to your audience? You know, the people who watch.
edited 5th Apr '12 5:30:04 AM by Wild-Card
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.I personally stopped watching him altogether exactly because of this attitude lately, the movie show was the last one and I dropped that halfway through the Red Tails one where he goes on a rant that everyone disliking the movie is obviously just a disgruntled Star Wars fan. And he calls other people out for immaturity? Glasshouses Bob.
If he is stressed out thanks to his workload he should fix that, making regular videos is kind of pointless when no one is left to watch them.
Unfortunatly Ana I don't think the disgruntled former fans make up much of his fanbase. More like a Vocal Minority. It's unfortunate cause I think if he actually lost money from fewer people watching his videos he notice that people don't like hearing him Straw Man his opponents.
I'm still watching his Escape To the Movies videos. He usually doesn't let his outrage interfere with those videos.
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.You know, I just re-watched the Mass Effect episode, and early on he outright says that it's okay to be massively disappointed or even angry about the ending as long as you don't demand it be changed.
It seems half of the people missed that bit. Possibly intentionally, so they could use Bob as an internet punching bag. Again.
I like how you strawman him by accusing him of strawmanning, it's quite clever.
The arguments he'd addressed in the video do actually exist, and they're quite common, too. You appear to be assuming that most people on the internet have much more reasonable arguments than the ones that are specifically being addressed here.
While this may be true in smaller and more easily moderated communities, on places like Reddit, 4Chan, and major gaming sites like IGN, stupid arguments are the norm.
The truth is, video games and other works of art should not be released as rough drafts. You can criticize a product, but don't demand it to be changed, ask that the next product be better. Or better yet, stop buying them. Demanding a change to an already released game only serves to encourage them to be released in an unfinished state.
I'm not "assuming" anything. I've actually read quite a few people with reasonable opinions on the matter. Look at the numerous posts that aren't flaming him but are giving their reasons for Re-Take Mass Effect. Yeah stupid arguments may be the norm on those sites, (can't really know don't visit them enough to see) but he is lumping everybody who supports the Retake Mass Effect movement as people who could be compared to the Misery chick. I'm not Strawmanning him he did say that. Than he through around the entitlement word and lectured them like they were children.
It doesn't matter if numerous people who support the ME 3 movement are idiots. I find to represent them all as one group and then collectively call them asshole's is very wrong.
The final paragraph of your post is a matter of opinion and not fact. Please don't represent it as such.
edited 5th Apr '12 7:36:40 PM by Wild-Card
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
My thoughts on the ending? The ending writers' mothers should have slapped the stork that delivered them.
Those demanding the game be changed and making an issue of how much you hate it? You are playing right into Bio Ware's hands. The greatest thing you can do is ignore them.
Decrying anyone who says they don't like the endings as "as whiny babies throwing a hissy fit?" What a hypocrite. Those who disagree with you are babies? Well here's some baby talk: awwwwww poor boy, someone doesn't think da swame as you dwo? Bwaaaaaa...best stway swafely tucked abway behind mommies computer den.
Or in the immortal words of Motoko Kusanagi...straighten up your own life before whining about the lives of others. Or if that's too much where a blindfold zip your mouth and live in a cave.
Fans are entitled to voice their displeasure in not getting what they were promised. Or would Bob Straw rather we all lived in Nazi Germany, yeah I said it.
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours
Bob said that people who were trying to change the ending where throwing hissy fits, not the people who just don't like the ending. Look I'm not on his side but please look more carefully at the past posts before you say things like that. Also don't seriously try to invoke Godwin's Law it makes you look like your just trying to get a reaction.
I wonder if a year from now Movie Bob is gonna do a "Crass Effect Revisited" video. From what I've seen of the comments it was his most talked about video and Big Picture at the very least.
Honestly, the people who didn't realize this immediate are either not very observant, or, as is the case with far too many, are part of the Hate Dom that actively look for things to bash.
You didn't even watch the video, did you?
edited 13th Apr '12 11:37:34 PM by Zennistrad
I think some of the Hate Dumb comes from his Fan Dumb. I've seen on the escapist and sometimes on his blog. Back when I was reading his comments it seemed like a lot of people who gave him constructive criticism were just met with replies of "He just has an opinion you disagree with and that is the only reason your criticizing him" or sometimes "just a troll doesn't deserve your attention" replies. Not all of his defenders or his supporters mind you, just quite a few I've seen on his posts and on the Escapist forums.
Honestly it would be a lot easier to take Bob seriously when he says his show is to get gamers to think if he just stated his opinion without the whole "I'm right and my opponents aren't and all my fans should only listen to me!" thing he does sometimes. A few of his fans take it to heart that his is the only opinion that matters and straw man everyone else it seems. He does say that his opinion is not infallible but his more extreme fans don't seem to take it to heart. Now this is a problem in every fanbase sure but at times it seems Bob believes he is infallible so it is easy to see why people including myself get so mad at his videos.
The difference between the I Am Legend and Mass Effect examples is that the former had a good ending that was replaced by something else for greater mass appeal; the latter was a bad ending because it didn't provide commentary on the events of the game. In fact, the current ending of Mass Effect 3 and the cinema-release ending of I Am Legend have exactly that in common, both failing to provide insightful closure on the experience that audience had just been through.
Personally, I'm all for some level of democratisation of art. I don't think fans should be deciding specific things, because fans aren't students or professionals in game design and therefore don't ultimately know what they're talking about from a design perspective. What the fans can recognise is what the pieces of the puzzle don't add up. I can't tell what Bio Ware were getting at with their ending, and by all accounts it was out of place. Mass Effect didn't always have a positive tone, but it was a space opera about one good soldier saving the galaxy. The ending, taking or leaving the indoctrination hypothesis, essentially had nothing to do with that.
While I think a singular fan or a small group of fans demanding a new ending is arrogant, the fact that so many have voiced their opinions in this way speaks volumes about how misaimed the ending of Mass Effect was. Ultimately, it was not a strong enough ending and its invalidation of the series' technical theme — that you controlled Shepard's characterisation and influenced major events in the story — trivialised the entire story thus far.
The general consensus, even amongst those who disagree with this kind of thing, is that the Mass Effect 3 ending was bad and ought to have been different if it wanted to close the series effectively. Almost all of us agree on that count, so the difference in this case is that it's actually happening. The thing is that personal ownership of art is a relatively modern idea. When we look at mythology, fairy tales and the like, we seldom know who wrote those works originally, and for good reason. In premodern times, a work of art was considered to be owned by its observers as well as its creators. It's only after money was attached to art — such as books published after the invention of the printing press — that the idea of personal ownership emerged, primarily to see that money was going to the right place.
While there's no consensus in artistic communities, there are projects on Kickstarter from prominent and established developers that encourage donors to contribute in some intellectual form to the project. Not considerably, but these project leads are actively inviting their benefactors to, on some level, engage in the game design process. Similarly, plenty of professional musicians have no or limited criticism of music piracy. What I find interesting is that the group most opposed to the democratisation of art isn't creators, but would-be artists and those with publishing stakes. A good artist wants to retain their integrity, certainly, but they also want to please an audience. The whole point is to provide an experience that provokes an intellectual or emotional response, ideally both.
Obviously, game designers and developers should have the largest say concerning what goes into games, but what I love about the current events rocking the game community is how they're slowly redefining how games might be made in the future. Between Kickstarter and Bio Ware's remake of the ending, the game consumers are gaining more and more power over the industry. This might sound like an invitation for chaos, but think about the scenario this time last year, and the years before that: publishers had the stranglehold. Remember that greedy publishers are why good game ideas get shot down in favour of sequels and clones, but regular game consumers — the kind who buy consoles and gaming P Cs, plus games from multiple genres — actively seek out creativity, fun and stronger experiences.
This kind of consumer input is a first for the modern world, and I think it's entirely a good sign. Whereas films and books are ultimately at the mercy of publishers and producers, where consumer input is all but impossible, the game industry might yet trend towards being defined by the needs of consumers rather than what publishers decide to throw at us based on past market trends. FPS games have been the hot thing for ten years now, but in my experience, most people who have been playing games for a considerable amount of time are now looking for something fresh. If my anecdote is worth anything — an it may well not be, of course — then that tells us that a huge part of the demographic that made FPS games popular in the first place is now disinterested.
If that's true, then we can tell that AAA publisher data suffers from confirmation bias. That is, people tend to buy AAA games more than any others (apart from the recent explosion of casual application titles), but if the only AAA titles are the results of publisher sales data, then it feeds into a loop. That is, it does not accurately reflect the needs of game consumers. But if consumers have some kind of actual, immediate influence in the industry, then we could see a change that diversified the games at our fingertips a great deal. The result of this change could eventually see AAA publishers catching on and diversifying their own projects. This way, everyone wins; consumers win because everyone can have strong games that appeal to their tastes; publishers win because they're selling to more diverse audiences; developers win because they can stretch their skills and creativity instead of stifling under sequels and clones.
I can understand perfectly how the fan reaction to the Mass Effect 3 ending could come across as abrasive, rude and entitled. All the same, it's an indicator that the game industry might be moving towards greater democratisation in general rather than just in the instance of specific games. If this reduces the importance of publishers or forces them to diversify their games output, then I think it can only be a good thing.
Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch@Madass Alex: I'm sorry that is a very good argument but isn't it kinda off topic?
@A Real Card: Perhaps, I do think some of his target do deserve to be talked down too. But I find him as bad as a lot of his targets especially when he plays the victim card. "Don't dare disagree with what the vast majority on the internet says" Metroid Other M revisted.

Places like Destructoid and IGN have been getting hate this whole time for treating people that don't like the ending with disrespect and ignorance. As far as I can tell though, even with the copious amounts of ignorance and refusal to even hear the complaints, both sides have had the same amount of civil people as well as assholes.
edited 27th Mar '12 3:07:37 PM by NULLcHiLD27