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Does religion do more harm or good?

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RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#226: Jan 9th 2011 at 12:01:23 PM

Secular societies are the bane of religions. Not only do they often directly contradict their rules, they make them superfluous and irrelevant by stripping them of all power.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#227: Jan 9th 2011 at 12:37:14 PM

Even presuming that following the rules is the point of a religion, how can an institution dealing strictly with the material eliminate its power?

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#229: Jan 9th 2011 at 1:07:12 PM

By the fact that every single religion needs to consider material matters in order to survive? Because it can easily make religions not required, and if a religion is maintained as simply a private thing then it looses a great deal of authority over its members, if only because their numbers will diminsh.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#230: Jan 9th 2011 at 1:10:54 PM

Yeah, no need to fake it anymore, and, peer pressure being take away, a lot of motivation is lost.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#231: Jan 9th 2011 at 1:17:04 PM

How can it be good for a religion for the bulk of its membership to be faking it?

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#233: Jan 9th 2011 at 1:21:49 PM

Explain?

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#234: Jan 9th 2011 at 1:23:40 PM

I can't explain in one word answers, which rather defeats the flow.

In all seriousness, it depends on what you mean by "the religion." The "Core philosophy" may be deteriorated, but it's pretty silly to hold ideals to be things that need to be preserved (especially if they turn out to be wrong). But if by religion we mean the religious establishment, then as long as they're making their upkeep in the form of tithes-even if it's from lip service, that's not necessarily a problem.

JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#235: Jan 9th 2011 at 1:25:28 PM

A tithe is a set amount of money taken from parishoners towards (say) upkeep of the priests lavatory.

And members may be members of a religion for many reasons that are not distincly "religious" and one of those can be the acquisition of power, if there are no longer people paying religion much heed such people will transfer their interests elsewhere.

Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#236: Jan 9th 2011 at 1:40:41 PM

Okay, rephrasing: I am a Christian. Why should I ever consider it a good thing for the local clergy to be motivated by the love of money?

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#237: Jan 9th 2011 at 1:44:13 PM

If being a cleric isn't an interesting career path, less parents will push their children into it. Children who would have otherwise made wonderful priests go and become philosophers or NGO workers or whatever instead.

SRSLY, nothing better than the Church for developing ivory tower intellectualism, which is underrated IMHO. For one thing, we owe it genetics.

edited 9th Jan '11 1:45:06 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#238: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:02:39 PM

Would the greedy really make for wonderful priests?

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#239: Jan 9th 2011 at 2:04:13 PM

Because they will keep your church built, your souls prayed for and the people who come to church more easily ministered to if they have money to do it with.

And sometimes clerics will be motivated by stuff other than money, an escape from angry husbands is one option, and in my own case I wondered about becoming a priest because I liked helping people and ministering to them, I simply lacked the faith to become a priest and the mind neccesarily to become a doctor.

Also I didn't just mean the priests, I also meant ordinary "Lay" people can be motivated to join areligious group out of none religious reasons.

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#240: Jan 9th 2011 at 3:34:35 PM

"Would the greedy really make for wonderful priests?" - Tangent

Well, even if they were personally greedy they say anti-greed things that at least sound convincing, however hypocritical they would be. One doesn't need to have a virtuous nature to have a heroic role.

KCK Can I KCK it? from In your closet Since: Jul, 2010
Can I KCK it?
#241: Jan 9th 2011 at 4:32:09 PM

[sighs] And it's these kind of attitudes that are poisoning the church today—among other thing—and have been doing so for a long time.

There's no justice in the world and there never was~
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#242: Jan 9th 2011 at 4:45:04 PM

I think some of the blame for that can be layed at the floor of the Gregorian reform, there is no better way to ruin a church system than insist on priests not copulating. Because what you make them into is either hypocrits or homosexuals (seriously the amount of man love that went on in monastaries is remarkable).

Anyway we are meandering about a bit here, so I have this question to ask religious people here, can you name a particular time where your religion has helped or hindered you? I am just wondering.

KCK Can I KCK it? from In your closet Since: Jul, 2010
Can I KCK it?
#243: Jan 9th 2011 at 4:54:31 PM

@Bugman Because you know, celibacy is basically impossible, yep. Although I personally believe that it shouldn't be a lifetime thing unless the priest chooses to do so. A mandatory period of at least five to ten years would be enough, and they could continue if they chose to do so or stop.

There's no justice in the world and there never was~
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#244: Jan 9th 2011 at 4:55:22 PM

INSTITUTIONALIZED Celibacy is a different ballgame.

KCK Can I KCK it? from In your closet Since: Jul, 2010
Can I KCK it?
#245: Jan 9th 2011 at 5:00:18 PM

@Tomu Of course it is, but I it upsets me when all of the arguments seem to equal out to be "celibacy is bad!". I have yet to hear one that just criticizes the institutionalization.

There's no justice in the world and there never was~
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#246: Jan 9th 2011 at 5:02:49 PM

How should I put this, when you are making the members of noble houses as well as people who have desires more secular than spiritual go into the church and force them to celibacy then problems will ensue. And whilst I am not saying that Celibacy is bad, or even that it is good what it often is in almost any time period is "hard to maintain".

Which is why forcing on an entire substrata of society (espeically the ones who run the bureuacracy) is not always going to be a good thing.

KCK Can I KCK it? from In your closet Since: Jul, 2010
Can I KCK it?
#247: Jan 9th 2011 at 5:15:30 PM

@Bugman That's true, but people who hold mostly secular desires should be in the church at all, which is why church bureaucracies are very dangerous and contemptible.

There's no justice in the world and there never was~
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#248: Jan 9th 2011 at 5:18:41 PM

Not only that, but drives towards "purity" in religious groups are often harmful to them. Look for instance at the gregorian reform and consider for a moment how much of protestantism would not have existed had priests continued to be allowed to have kids. Seperating Lay clergy and their parishoners is a sign of trouble brewing in my view.

KCK Can I KCK it? from In your closet Since: Jul, 2010
Can I KCK it?
#249: Jan 9th 2011 at 5:21:57 PM

@Bugman Purity is only bad if it's forced, but you could say that about anything.

Separating them? How so?

There's no justice in the world and there never was~
JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#250: Jan 9th 2011 at 5:28:00 PM

The priest in a lot of medieval communities was forced (through dictate from Rome if nothing else) to act as a seperate entity to most of his parishoners, the lack of familial connections, the extreme lack of training but the august language what they did know was put in as well as the emphasis on bodily and spiritual purity (and the reasons to look down on it in ones flock) lead to the dictates being ignored or causing a rift between ordinary lay people and the church that was supposed to serve them.


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