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Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#24801: Nov 12th 2018 at 6:46:18 PM

RE: Falrinn

Given Wrathion's Know-Nothing Know-It-All status and Fantastic Racism, I doubt he'd be knowledgeable enough about troll culture to impersonate the loa.

All this just reminds of how pointless Vol'jin's death to a random Felguard was, whilst Varian got a Big Heroic Sacrifice. Its not as if Vol'jin got a comic series or even got to be war chief for more then one expansion.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#24802: Nov 12th 2018 at 6:56:35 PM

Yeah, that was really disappointing. Especially after he survived fighting Garrosh of all people, and led an insurrection from the shadows, he just got taken down by a sucker punch. Sure, it's realistic in some ways (death is rarely cinematic), but this is fiction, and it really should have been cinematic.

I don't begrudge Varian his heroic sacrifice, because it was goddamn cool and the theme song elevated it to awesome levels, I just wish Vol'jin had been given the same kind of consideration. And I wouldn't really consider his coming back as a loa compensation for it, either.

It's been fun.
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#24803: Nov 12th 2018 at 7:11:22 PM

RE: Red Sa Vant

It felt like Varian's death was planned, but Vol'jin's death was hastily added in last minute in a misguided attempt to even the scale, forgetting that Garrosh was already killed and that the Horde already was low on heroes anyhow.

Vol'jin didn't even get a successor as chieftain of the Darkspear, leaving the Troll to join the orcs in having no racial leader.

Its worse because Vol'jin was one of the last remaining Horde leaders from the beginning and the last leader remaining from the WCIII Horde.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#24804: Nov 12th 2018 at 7:30:47 PM

I'm not sure about hastily added, since it's clear they wanted to move on to making Sylvanas Warchief pretty fast, but it definitely felt tacked-on. Especially since even the Hordeside cinematic focuses on the Alliance retreat and Varian's sacrifice, while the Alliance cinematic is shot from the point of view of an Alliance footsoldier, to make it look like the Horde abandoned and betrayed the Alliance coalition.

Which is a cool idea - it naturally helps stoke faction competition, and helps show why the mistrust arises between the factions - but it's only selectively used. Though, the use at the end of Siege of Orgrimmar where the two cinematics diverge into the faction groups talking quietly amongst themselves was very cool - as long as the cinematics stay consistent in showing the same events.

Edited by RedSavant on Nov 12th 2018 at 10:32:45 AM

It's been fun.
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#24805: Nov 12th 2018 at 8:23:30 PM

[up] Keep in mind that Vol'jin's death got a whole separate cinematic that focused entirely on his passing and Sylvanas becoming Warchief, the Alliance didn't get an equivalent to that until the Broken Shore patch. That means that while the decision may not of been part of Blizzard's original plan for Legionnote  it was a course change that happened fairly early on.

On this subject I used to be in the camp that Vol'jin's death was an ill-advised attempt to balance the scales, but now that we are in BfA I think it was mostly a result of Blizzard deciding that the next expansion worked best with Vol'jin actually dead.

The current Sylvanas story would be harder to justify if she was merely "Acting Warchief"note , and the Loa-heavy Zandalar setting would give ample opportunity for Vol'jin to act from beyond death.

Though I do agree it was a misstep to not give the Darkspear a new leader right away. I think they should of just made Rokhan, who is clearly the most important Darkspear Troll anyways, the official leader. They could of even left a little wiggle room by making him a provisional leader instead of the official Chieftain, and then picked up that thread when they had space to do it justice.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#24806: Nov 12th 2018 at 8:26:35 PM

RE: Falrinn

Sylvanas could've been Warchief without Vol'jin kicking the bucket. Again Vol'jin was the last leader left from the WC 3 Horde.

The Alliance gets to keep powerhouse hero after powerhouse hero, but the Horde is barely scraping by. All this pointless character death and never any real replacements..

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#24807: Nov 12th 2018 at 8:43:23 PM

[up] Dead doesn't mean gone.

Sure they could of stuck with their original plan and had Vol'jin be MIA, but I'd actually argue that Vol'jin is probably much more active in the story as a dead person then he would be if he was missing.

Also, I wouldn't count Thrall out as someone who could make a return. While his absence from recent events is conspicuous to say the least, technically speaking we have yet to get a single expansion where Thrall was absent from beginning to end. He was in the very start of Legion (his final appearance being the Doomhammer line) and BfA isn't over yet.

My crackpot theory on the subject is that he got nabbed by Azshara after the Doomhammer line and we'll end up running into him during the Eternal Palace raid.

...Also, I need to state something for the record. If this thread becomes nothing more than a constant stream of complaining about unfair to the Horde the story is, even if the complaints are valid and I agree they reflect real problems with the story, I'm going to check out. I deal with enough negativity involving stuff that's far more important than this silly game.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#24808: Nov 12th 2018 at 8:51:25 PM

[up][up] They couldn't make Sylvanas Warchief after Garrosh's arrest, though; you honestly think Varian would've allowed Sylvanas to take the mantle of warchief after everything that happened with Garrosh? At least with Vol'Jin, he was more inspired by Thrall's ideals; Sylvanas by this point was getting just as bad as Pre-Face–Heel Turn Garrosh. The only way Sylvanas could've become Warchief immediately after Garrosh, would be for so much lore to have been different from Cataclysm forward (say, Garrosh not going power hungry, him dying in Vol'Jin's shoes, and for some reason he chose Sylvanas, who in this lore couldn't be a necromancing-happy near tyrant she is in canon). The way lore was officially written, however, Varian would've absolutely fought Sylvanas if she was chosen Warchief after Garrosh, and I wouldn't be surprised if Bain and Vol'Jin helped in fighting her.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#24809: Nov 12th 2018 at 9:00:31 PM

RE: Falrinn

If we're discussing how the Horde's remaining heroes should be killed in BFA, we may as well discuss the ramifications of doing so and how it doesn't exactly solve the problem.

If you do want to change the subject to solutions to the writing of the Horde and/or Alliance, I am all ears.

RE: Dingo Walley 1

I mean back in Legion, something could have come up requiring Vol'jin to step down and give the mantle to Sylvanas without killing.

On a related note, Garrosh was significantly less ruthless then Sylvanas prior to his last minute Face–Heel Turn.

As has been discussed, the Siege of Orgrimmar storyline seems basically a "Shaggy Dog" Story that didn't solve anything. The Horde not only lost Garrosh, but a tremendous amount of orc heroes. The worst part was it didn't solve anything as Orcs started being universally treated as a Planet Of Copy Hats of Face–Heel Turn Garrosh and the Horde as a whole continued to be vilified as Vol'jin was immediately killed.

Essentially all the Horde gained from the Siege storyline was the loss of prominent heroes, Character Derailment of an entire race and the loss of two racial leaders with no replacement.

As for Baine, I doubt he'd lift a finger, just as he didn't lift a finger when the Alliance killed his people and Sylvanas raised his people.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 12th 2018 at 9:01:41 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#24810: Nov 12th 2018 at 9:09:44 PM

I have to say I'm with Falrinn on this one. If the majority of posts are just going to be some form of "BLIZZARD BAD!!!!!" I got nothing worth being here for as I feel neither desire nor obligation to give negativity approaching the level of "Then what are you even doing here?" any acknowledgement at all.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#24811: Nov 12th 2018 at 9:13:17 PM

I haven't criticized any of the developers, I just mentioned my story grievances as many others have.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#24812: Nov 12th 2018 at 9:17:53 PM

@Falrinn and sgamer: That's very fair, and I apologize if I've made the thread an unpleasant place to be.

It's been fun.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#24813: Nov 12th 2018 at 9:25:19 PM

[up][up] Bit of potato/potahto there, far as I'm concerned, given the story writers are part of the development team

[up] It's more general tone than any one person, but it's appreciated.

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 12th 2018 at 10:27:06 AM

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#24814: Nov 12th 2018 at 9:28:53 PM

RE: Sgamer

I haven't criticized the writers, I've criticized the writing and kept it there.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#24815: Nov 12th 2018 at 9:30:47 PM

The writers do the writing, so that strikes me as a Distinction Without a Difference.

[down] And? I stand by my statement in this post.

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 12th 2018 at 10:33:57 AM

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#24816: Nov 12th 2018 at 9:33:00 PM

RE: Sgamer

Other people in the thread have bluntly attacked the writers, I've only made the stance I don't want the storyline to keep making the same mistake. Essentially I've kept to constructive criticism.

As said before, I'm open to changing the subject.

Guess I'll start, is there any allied race you're hoping for in the future?

Edited by Monsund on Nov 12th 2018 at 9:42:45 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#24817: Nov 13th 2018 at 5:05:19 AM

What I want is to get down to the meat of this Old Gods thing, and it seems like that's what Blizzard is giving us, so hooray. Allied races are cool and all, and I'll certainly unlock them when I get the opportunity, but leveling a new toon to 120 to unlock the heritage armors has no draw for me whatsoever. I did it once on my VE and that's enough of that. It's more of a chore than anything fun.

I will admit, for the sake of honesty, that I do want to eventually play every class, so Warrior is on the table for some future date with an allied race. DKs and DHs, however, can't be used to get heritage armor as I understand, so I don't have the same excuse.


As for the story, it is my considered opinion that almost everyone who is complaining about it is doing so not because of the subjective quality of the writing, but because it doesn't go where they, personally, think it should. If anything, we're at a peak in terms of the depth and development of the characters and their motivations. Warcraft's writing has never been fantastic: this is after all a stock fantasy world populated by stock fantasy archetypes and stock fantasy plots, but as long as it gives us a reason to play our characters so we can see what's next, it's doing its job.

What I think is at the root of the complaints is that Blizzard has been gradually shifting away from a world in which players mostly get to make up their own stories: about who they are, what their motivations are, and so on — a world in which there are grand story arcs but they take place at some distance from us so we can imagine that we have lives separate from the epic moments.

Now, however, the story has gotten much narrower and more focused: there's the sense that we are inside a very long and drawn-out movie, and when characters in that movie do things that don't match the fantasy we've built up in our minds, it creates a form of cognitive dissonance that gets taken out on the writers. Our characters are active participants in these stories so we lose the sense of having a say in them. Frankly, I'm fine with where Blizzard is taking this, since narrative is what brings me to games, but not everybody is, and that's fair.

I'm not obsessed over whether Sylvanas is being spoiled as my waifu (although she is absolutely acting in-character and anyone who can't see this is blinded by their Banshee Queen love pillows). I'm not worried that the Horde seems to be starved of leadership, or that the Alliance seems politically unified but militarily weak. These are story arcs that aren't finished yet. Getting mad at this point is like reading up to the Weathertop chapter in Lord of the Rings and saying, "Fuck this, Frodo's gonna die and they're all going to fail. This is such hack writing."

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2018 at 8:07:33 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#24818: Nov 13th 2018 at 5:33:35 AM

You see, I'm always generally with you until the 'the people who disagree with me are dumb and/or willfully ignorant because they want to bone Sylvanas' part that you always get to. I suppose it's one thing if you feel that way, and I'm not telling you to bite your tongue about your opinion or anything, but it also seems needlessly antagonistic to people you know read this thread. I know the tone is generally acerbic in terms of things people have said about the writing; Falrinn and Sgamer brought it up just now, and I plan to be better about the negativity, but the point is that the writers don't read this thread and so probably don't care. Meanwhile, we do read the thread, and honestly, it kind of stings that you apparently still don't hold us in high enough regard not to make body pillow jokes.

If you don't think the points we've made hold up, that's fine, and by all means tell us so. But if you have an actual argument to make, you can do it without juvenile personal insults.

It's been fun.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#24819: Nov 13th 2018 at 6:01:12 AM

I'm always generally with you until the 'the people who disagree with me are dumb and/or willfully ignorant because they want to bone Sylvanas' part that you always get to. I suppose it's one thing if you feel that way, and I'm not telling you to bite your tongue about your opinion or anything, but it also seems needlessly antagonistic to people you know read this thread.
I have to agree. It comes off as something said for no real reason than to troll/get a rise out of people rather than add a contributing opinion to the discussion.

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 13th 2018 at 7:02:00 AM

Druplesnubb Editor of Posts Since: Dec, 2013
Editor of Posts
#24820: Nov 13th 2018 at 6:41:20 AM

I'm unsure about how much Sylvanas' actions make sense for her. She should have known that the war would go terribly for her. Look how everyone agrees the Horde is screwed without the Zandalari fleet, she didn't ally the Zandalari until after the war started, and then only thanks to a lucky coincidence. Believing that burning down Teldrassil would scare the Alliance from retaliating, rather than making them want to fight until the very end, is just stupid; especially with the previously mentioned massive advantage that the Alliance has. Seeing her kingdom destroyed and her spirit enslaved by Arthas didn't cause her to give up out of fear, and nobody submitted to the Legion despite their massive cruelty and military superiority. This is an outcome that aboslutely everyone, including her, should have seen coming. And the rest of the Horde should be a lot harsher o nher for the shit she pulls, especially after Garrosh.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#24821: Nov 13th 2018 at 7:20:51 AM

Maybe I'd stop the digs at the Sylvanas fans if it weren't for the fact that they scream Character Derailment every time she commits an atrocity, even though Blizzard's own writers have come out and said this was the direction for her arc since the very beginning. I don't understand this level of willful blindness so I'm just going to keep mocking it. (Obviously this applies only to that subset mentioned.)

It's fine to like her as a character. I like her quite a bit, actually, since she's a compelling individual with depth and understandable motivations. That doesn't mean I like what she's doing or want her to succeed at her vision of the Horde. It seems like many people can't handle this sort of dissociation and believe that Blizzard wants Horde players to support her or something, when this is absolutely not the truth.

I only wish Alliance had something as dynamic as this going on. I'm not going to scream favoritism, because (a) I prefer my faction stable and reasonably sane, thank you very much; (b) Alliance gets its own interesting character arcs this expansion. I'm just saying that when you get a choice to side with Sylvanas' faction or Saurfang's faction, this is perhaps the most agency any player has been given in the history of Warcraft. To deny that feels like people are spitting in Blizzard's face out of pure contrariness.

She should have known that the war would go terribly for her.

If the "Lost Honor" cinematic is to be believed, she's doing just fine, and it's the Alliance that's depleting all its manpower fighting the war. This is the reason for the attack on Darza'alor: it's a desperation strike to cripple the Zandalari so they can't add their might to the Horde.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2018 at 10:25:18 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#24822: Nov 13th 2018 at 7:28:33 AM

Maybe I'd stop the digs at the Sylvanas fans if it weren't for the fact that they scream Character Derailment every time she commits an atrocity, even though Blizzard's own writers have come out and said this was the direction for her arc since the very beginning. I don't understand this level of willful blindness so I'm just going to keep mocking it.
With all due courtesy, isn't that exactly the kind of thing you'd Thump other people for doing? Particularly when there's been call outs on the behavior and/or requests to stop doing it?

If nothing else, as noted in RedSavant's post ("I'm with you up until you do this") all you really do is undermine your own legitimate points by throwing in such petty mockery.


I'm the interest of being constructive, does Sylvanas actually care about the outcome of the was itself? She clearly has her own agenda going. It could well be one that renders who wins the war a secondary consideration.

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 13th 2018 at 8:46:03 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#24823: Nov 13th 2018 at 7:35:04 AM

[up] Maybe. I'll stop if we can all agree to discuss the matter constructively.

And no, I don't think Sylvanas really cares about the war or the outcome for the Horde. Her motivations seem to center almost entirely around her own personal survival and her quest for some form of immortality for herself (and the Forsaken by extension). The Horde is a useful tool to that end, to be manipulated as needed, but is she going to hesitate to raise their dead for her own army? Not in the slightest.

Edited to add: I've said this many times, but Battle for Azeroth is not ultimately about Horde vs. Alliance. That's the cover story to kick things off, but we already know that we're moving to Nazjatar in 8.2, and that Sylvanas is going to wield Xalatath. I've believed all along that her character arc will have her abandon the Horde to go after N'Zoth, and she may even pull an Illidan in the sense that she ends up being the key to defeating him. It would be a fitting end for her, especially if she dies in the process. I don't think a redemption arc is in the cards, though: she's burned her bridges far too thoroughly for that. Nor do I see her becoming Lich King 2.0. (Or is it 3.0?) She'd have to pull an Arthas on Bolvar for that to happen, and Bolvar is no Ner'zhul. More to the point, it would be an abrupt right-turn for the story.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2018 at 10:48:57 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#24824: Nov 13th 2018 at 7:50:40 AM

Look, man, no one's after you personally here. It's just kind of hurtful. Getting petulant doesn't help, and it especially doesn't help if your condition for stopping is the exact kind of environment your comments help undermine. Constructive doesn't (necessarily) mean that we end up agreeing with you. Though that said, maybe we should just drop the topic of Sylvanas. I don't think there's much more to be said on either side.

In any case, I agree that the Horde is lucky to have a more dynamic cast, though that does come with the catch-22 that most of them end up getting literally axed. I imagine even getting kicked in the rear every expansion is better than being ignored, from the average Alliance perspective.

Edited by RedSavant on Nov 13th 2018 at 10:51:08 AM

It's been fun.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#24825: Nov 13th 2018 at 8:05:48 AM

I've believed all along that her character arc will have her abandon the Horde to go after N'Zoth, and she may even pull an Illidan in the sense that she ends up being the key to defeating him. It would be a fitting end for her, especially if she dies in the process.
That's been my own running theory for a long time now, that Sylvanas is being set up to be a key player in some way only she can do. My thought was she might be the only one capable of acting in a Shoot the Dog scenario. Though recent developments with Vol'jin suggest it may be something more diabolical.


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