World Of Warcraft

On a different note, any predictions for the Azshara Warbringer animation?

We know it will at least partially be a retrospective from the trailer, but I'm going to make a bold prediction and say it will end with the revelation that someone in the upper ranks of the Horde/Alliance leadership is her agent, without revealing or really giving any hints as to who.

I don't see why it has to be one or the other: she's either beyond reproach or she's a monster. There's quite a scale between those points.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

^I'm having a little trouble parsing your post - just to be sure, you mean that it doesn't have to be one or the other? I agree with that, which is why I want to see them stick her somewhere in the middle. She's not a monster yet, but she has the capacity to be, and I want to see Blizz show her struggle with that before (ideally) finding the strength not to go through with it.

Why I worry about Jaina is the uncertainty about what she could or would do if she had free reign. As someone pointed out, she's probably on par with Khadgar power-wise, and that's an uneasy-making thing to consider given her bearing during Legion. If she wasn't loyal to Varian, she could have assassinated the entire Horde leadership, plus the most distinguished heroes of the Horde, within a few seconds after Garrosh was defeated; that's worrying. She's shrewd and intelligent, and incredibly dangerous. It would be very easy for her to take vengeance in any way she pleased. That's my worry from an invested Hordeside point of view.

From the perspective of someone enjoying and discussing a story - if we end up keeping things balanced on a ledger, like saying Jaina has leeway to nuke one port and firebomb two major cities before she's as bad as Garrosh or Sylvanas or that she's justified in acting on her vengeance up to a certain extent, then that's not good, just generally, because that's kind of a shitty way to look at morality. Jaina's (currently hypothetical) atrocities don't zero out with Garrosh and Sylvanas's war crimes; they just add new war crimes, and perpetuate the cycle of violence and revenge. And that's fine - that's what the story's built on, and that's what the game is about. I just want to see them do it with someone who's less 'rargh I have a shadow monster inside me' and more 'holy shit, I'm a racist asshole like my dad'.

TL;DR she's not as bad as Garrosh or Sylvanas yet, and I'm hoping they don't make her one because that would be very bad for the Horde, but I also don't want her to suddenly be 100% morally correct because that's a waste of potentially interesting storytelling.

Edited by RedSavant on Aug 8th 2018 at 9:42:42 AM

It's been fun.

If I'm reading some of the beta dialogue correctly, what appears to happen (assuming it's not horribly out of context or fake dialogue) with Jaina is *Potentially Major Spoilers* she encounters Daelin's ghost and has a Heel-Realization.

This song needs more love.

Jaina did one unforgivable thing for several expansions. Spouting Stupid Evil things without a grain of anything else. Garrosh had his pride and cancerous sense of honor; Sylvanas is sassy and shameless; Jaina has nothing. Judging from that she will turn out good in the end.

“You can’t be an important and life-changing presence for some people without also being a joke and embarrassment to others.” -Mark Manson.

Jaina hasn't committed any war crimes on par with Sylvanas or Garrosh yet. But just as the Horde fears that Greymane whispering into Anduin's ear would turn the boy king pacifist into a warmonger, if Jaina continues to listen to the ghost of her father, she is on the path to becoming a raid boss for the Horde.

Daelin didn't want to dismantle Horde or put them under Alliance jurisdiction. He wanted to kill them all. If Jaina is truly listening to her father, the Horde would have every reason not to rebel against Sylvanas.

Let's hope she understands what really killed her father.

I can imagine Anduin telling her that if she's determined to become the next Daelin, he won't hesitate to become the next Jaina.

As things stand, the only way I see the war ending with both factions intact, a necessity for the game, I'd think, is that the Horde win but, for whatever reason (most likely a change in leadership) clearly and deliberately choose not to deliver the deathblow.

It would be an interesting irony if Sylvanas turned out to be right and the only road to long term peace was negotiated with the Horde in the stronger position.

A change in leadership in the Horde should ensure atrocities like the Burning of Teldrassil are unlikely to recur, while the Horde being the winning side makes sure the Alliance don't "end them" like Varian promised for the simple reason that they couldn't if they wanted to.

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 8th 2018 at 11:31:30 AM

(Edit: Man, I'm sorry my posts always end up so long and obnoxious...)

Well, we know the Horde has to survive, as a gameplay abstraction at the very least. It'll take careful handling so Sylvanas's war crimes and terror tactics don't end up being what save the Horde, though. The last few expansions have shown growing sentiment in the Alliance that the need for the destruction of the Horde is starting to outweigh the cost that would incur, so if the Horde is going to still exist after BFA then the Horde needs to essentially bloody the Alliance's nose and show they're not worth the effort to destroy fully.

Sylvanas has to go - she's an aggressor and increasingly unstable and unreliable, and because her actions at Teldrassil are indefensible. I get that the Horde is structurally and lorewise a lot more flexible in terms of making the faction leader a character the majority of players would feel uncomfortable serving, but we've done a lot of that already, and leaving Sylvanas at the top at the end of BFA would force a lot of Horde players to swallow the bitter pill of serving a war criminal instead of getting to reclaim their honor.

I feel like Anduin doesn't want war, even now, so that's an option for stopping the conflict. I'm just not sure who on the Horde could be his opposite number (and presumptive next Warchief), which is worrying. Baine would be cool, but I can't see that happening. Liadrin might work?

Here's my guess: Sylvanas will be killed around halfway through the expansion, or sacrifice herself or something. Through whatever means, the Alliance's direct beef with the Horde (AKA the Lich Queen) will be removed in a way that lets the Forsaken stick around as a playable race. I expect it'll be N'Zoth, given that warlock Artifact line about 'her third death', and that would allow the devs to end the faction conflict without one faction being smashed apart, as the two retreat to lick their wounds and go into the standard 'I hate you but good god that thing is ugly, let's kill it' relationship.

Edited by RedSavant on Aug 8th 2018 at 2:56:15 PM

It's been fun.

I watched the Burning of Teldrassil.

I need a hug. :'(

Princess Aurora is underrated, pass it on.

At this point I hope N'zoth will just crush both side's leaders during his reveal.

Moira would be the only real loss in this. All other leaders are just caricatures, stagnant or in Gen's case the worst character of their faction.

The idea that Horde win enough and Sylvanas just tells Alliance leaders "now we talk peace, after which I step down" entertains me a lot. The Internet would burn brighter than Teldrassil.

“You can’t be an important and life-changing presence for some people without also being a joke and embarrassment to others.” -Mark Manson.

I could see this expansion ending the same that Mists did, except Anduin decides to do what Varian didn't and disbands/absorbs the Horde, cue faction-agnostic gameplay with PvP being resistance pockets next expansion.

Maybe a bit too bold a move, but hey, they've been making bold decisions lately.

Edit: I also saw This on Reddit earlier today, seems to be making Anduin's role as a Foil as an Arthas who didn't go off the deep end much more explicit, that or foreshadowing bad things later.

Edited by NaraNumas on Aug 9th 2018 at 4:02:05 AM

That would be an interesting idea, but that would require a system overhaul on the level of Cataclysm, wouldn't it? Unless this is the end cap for WoW and we're moving on to WoW2 next.

It's been fun.

and i severely doubt that happens becauise the logistics of making wow 2 as financially successful as more wow is basically impossible

Well most B Gs are anachronistic anyway (like AV which still has Drekthar even though he is wheelchair-bound since Cata). New B Gs could be framed as battles between other factions with your characters acting as mercenaries or gladiatorial games like SWTOR's Huttball.

Edited by Kiefen on Aug 9th 2018 at 12:58:22 PM

It's not just the Arthas parallel in that cinematic; WC3 is all over this expansion. It's in everything from the trailer's end shot referencing the Warcraft cover art to Jaina revisiting her father's death to Sylvanas reminiscing about the destruction of Quel'thalas, and many more. There's nothing even slightly subtle about it: Blizzard is taking us on a journey of nostalgia.

Now, whether this is intended as foreshadowing of history repeating or as an opportunity to do things better this time has yet to be discovered. I'm hooked like a fish and I'm not getting off until the end, so Blizzard did their job right.

Right at this moment, I can't get over Jaina's aerial dreadnought. It's so badass that I don't even give one single damn whether it fits any established lore or power levels.

---

I don't think that Alliance vs. Horde as a core concept is ever going to go away from WoW. Even if the factions come out of BfA having reached a point of peace and/or reconciliation, there will still be squabbles and struggles and conflicts. I think that Blizzard has made it pretty clear that faction-based PvP as a core premise will remain until the end, whatever that might be.

As for future content, I have no real idea what's coming after this expansion, although Blizzard certainly does. They plan at least one expansion ahead at all times. I don't see why they'd ever get off this gravy train as long as it keeps printing money for them.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2018 at 7:32:46 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

If they want to lore wise make it so the factions come together but still keep the Pv P in they can likely just handwave the player characters as hired mercanaries that still have old grudges. If they can't explain it away then I am honestly not sure if world Pv P would be too much of an loss anyway since the days of Tauren Mill vs Southshore world pvp is long long gone (unless you jumpship to Classic Wo W). No one pretty talks about World Pv P anymore accept the diehard nostalgia fanatics that'll never shut up about how Vanilla Wo W was better in everyway.

The battlegrounds would be really easy to explain. Have the Bronze Dragons basically say that the battlegrounds are throwbacks to the past were P Cs of both factions act like they are at war again. Unless you just want to have an red side and a blue side which would make it even easier as you just can say its an bunch of mercs fighting each other for glory.

Arenas would be the same exact thing as well. Hell it already it always had more of an merc teams fighting each other feel to it.

Edited by Wispy on Aug 9th 2018 at 4:54:00 AM

That's why I include a change in leadership as a prerequisite. Whatever she claimed to Saurfang, I don't think anyone here expects her to actually do something like that.

Yeah, that's not her actual long-term goal, no matter what she tells Saurfang. That's why I don't get Sylvanas apologists. We know, with absolute certainty, that the Horde is only useful to her as a tool; she has no more loyalty to it than Arthas did. She's rejected all feelings of love, all honor, all regret, all compassion.

Maybe you can hold out hope that she'll have a Villainous BSoD and redeem herself somehow. I don't see it happening, but sure, go for it. But to gloss over her atrocities and her stated motivations because you think she's cool? No, that's just self-deception.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2018 at 8:29:13 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

the easiest explanation for battlegrounds in a faction united world is simple.

You still gotta have training exercises so the troops are ready for external threats

@Fighteer: I mean, yeah, there are people like that. Personally I'm more interested in seeing if there's anything of Sylvanas left that hasn't been destroyed by the Lich King's power, and if she even realizes that's what's going on anymore. Somehow I doubt it.

It's been fun.

See, I'm not completely sure that the problem is specifically that she's indelibly corrupted by the Lich King (or the Old Gods), although that may be part of it. Blizzard has always been on the record as saying that choice plays a part in corruption: that everyone starts out free-willed and elects to start down the slippery slope (at least if you're an important character).

Sylvanas regained her free will, along with the rest of the Forsaken, during the Frozen Throne campaign. She could have chosen a different path at that point, but her experience of death so terrified her that she decided to prevent it at any cost. That's her core motivation, and whatever external influence may or may not be involved, she made that choice herself, just as Garrosh chose to unleash the Heart of Y'shaarj, and Arthas chose to take up Frostmourne.

Another way to put it is that the stories of these characters are tragedies, and classic Tragedy is based on a character having a Fatal Flaw that leads them into self-destruction. It's not a tragedy if they never had a choice.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2018 at 9:30:10 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Yeah, that's my reading of it too. That's definitely more interesting than just 'rargh I have a shadow monster', so I hope we get to see Sylvanas wrestle with what her choices have made her - perhaps as a mirror to Jaina realizing what it is she's on the path to doing, herself.

Speaking of tragedy and choice, I was going to add the fact that at least we heard from Garrosh about what drove him to do everything he did in the mak'gora cutscene, but unfortunately I always felt like that motivation was kind of wasted. Garrosh is absolutely right that Thrall shouldn't have chosen him to be Warchief. While his accusation that "you made me this way" sounds like he's shifting the blame, or getting desperate, he always seemed kind of lucid in that scene to me - like he knew something inside him was broken from the start. Which is actually in-line with his characterization in Burning Crusade.

I dunno. I would have liked to see Thrall's later reflections on that, especially given that he was already a father himself at that point.

It's been fun.

We do know that the events of Warlords of Draenor broke Thrall as a leader. He retired to go contemplate his navel; whether it was Garrosh's barbs that were the final straw or something else doesn't really matter. He had a baby, the elements stopped responding to him, and he effectively threw in the towel (or the Doomhammer, as may be).

It's important to remember that Thrall accepted responsibility for his errors, while Garrosh never did. That's the line between heroes and villains in this type of dramatic storytelling. In the Battle for Lordaeron cinematic, Anduin directly references this when he confronts Sylvanas. "You burned Teldrassil, but I failed those that burned." Garrosh says that Thrall made him what he is; Thrall accepts that responsibility. Killing Garrosh is the only satisfactory outcome.

This may also be what separates the fates of Jaina and Sylvanas. In Jaina's "Warbringers" video, she accepts the blame for what happened to her father, but in so doing she appears to fully embrace his genocidal cause. This is absolutely going to be her tragic downfall if she doesn't realize where it's going before it's too late. Sylvanas, for her part, has rejected redemption over and over, fully conscious of the consequences. If there's any chance that she could change course, it's getting slimmer by the moment.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2018 at 10:46:21 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Remind me, how many times has Sylvanas died? And what killed her?

Uni cat